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[Muhammad Mahdi]

It would be a shame to go off topic discussing Salman and the ahlulbayt here.
New thread opened. Post your argyments http://ask.or.tz/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=2558

[abuali]

good idea.

Oh, and just a point.

Interpreting the saying of Bibi Fatema(as) under discussion here, whereby she mentions 'the best among women...' to mean hijab would be similar to assuming her saying something like 'the best among the men are those who pray'.

Since Hijab is already wajib, it is a minimum requirement. Its the mustahabbat (after performing wajibat) which make one person better than the other. The one who does not do even the basic wajibat, is not even fit to compete for the 'better' or 'best'.

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

I went back to the hadith quoted and surprisingly enough, the word 'best' is not mentioned anywhere-not in the original arabic hadith, and not in the translation. The Prophet asked what is 'khayr' for a woman? and Lady Fatimah replied what she did. Now there's a difference between the words 'khayr' and 'afdhal'. Khayr means good or it can be stretched to mean better. Afdhal (the word NOT used) means best. And if the word 'best' has not been used, almost all the arguments we were having just disappear, don't they? :)

[abuali]

did you look this up online? If so, can you post the link.

Or if in a book, the name so I can try and get a copy to read it.

Have been looking for sources of this hadith.

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

It is because I think we should be referring to our beloved Ahlul Bayt (AS) in all matters in which we have a doubt, that I choose to quote, the lady of light, the noor in the eyes of our Holy Prophet, Bibi Fatema Zahra (AS)

The Prophet (SAW) said to Fatima (AS) what is the thing which is a blessing for woman?'

She said that, 'she must not see a man (stranger and not intimate) and a man must not see her.'

Reference: http://www.al-islam.org/masoom/sayings/fatema.html
Quote 33
Taken from: Fascinating Discourses of the 14 Infallibles (AS)

I found it in the same book. The word 'khayr' was translated 'blessing' in the book.

[abuali]

So in either case, we have established that it is better/more blessed.

I don't see how either definition can make a woman practicing it less better than the one who sees a man/is seen by a man?

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

No, not better...and not more blessed...just good or blessed. It all depenends on what the other woman's doing outside her house. If she's in proper hijab and she's doing something no man can/should do, she is definitely better than the one at home. Of course, if she is only in pretend hijab and/or doing haram things, the one at home's better, but the badness is intrinsic in her other actions and not because she left her 4 walls.

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

No, not better...and not more blessed...just good or blessed. It all depends on what the other woman's doing outside her house. If she's in proper hijab and she's doing something no man can/should do, she is definitely better than the one at home. Of course, if she is only in pretend hijab and/or doing haram things, the one at home's better, but the badness is intrinsic in her other actions and not because she left her 4 walls.

[abuali]

Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying that the Holy Prophet (saw) asked the question and Bibi Fatima gave the reply just to let us know one of the billions of things that a woman can do which is blessed?

Ask yourself again what is meant by the question and the word khayr.

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying that the Holy Prophet (saw) asked the question and Bibi Fatima gave the reply just to let us know one of the billions of things that a woman can do which is blessed?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying :)

[abuali]

I will have to DISAGREE with you (in caps)

I think the narration speaks for itself. And its far from trivial.

[abuali]

No, not better...and not more blessed...just good or blessed. It all depends on what the other woman's doing outside her house. If she's in proper hijab and she's doing something no man can/should do, she is definitely better than the one at home. Of course, if she is only in pretend hijab and/or doing haram things, the one at home's better, but the badness is intrinsic in her other actions and not because she left her 4 walls.

Can you provide other narrations of the things she can do outside her home which are 'just as blessed/good/khayr' (or better than/afzal) as staying at home?

If you are indicating that this narration was referring to one of the many many things that she can do that are khayr, i am sure there should be many many more narrations of similar narration where the prophet (saw) would have asked similar question and she would have replied with different answers of what is khayr.

A few such authentic narrations will be enough to convince me of your viewpoint.

Keep in mind the context of the question and answer.

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

Then I suppose we shall continue to disagree... :)

God says He is understood and worshipped through Reason. And reason dictates that it be that the case of a female doc (esp for other women), a female school teacher (lower classes especially), a female religious teacher (esp for women's masael or who can connect to other women) are essential in a society and since they're handling their home life AND an extra good deed, Reason again tells us that these are BETTER than the ones who do just 1 of the 2. Plus, of course, working outside of home means she has the life skills necessary to be able to support herself in case her husband cannot make ends meet or passes away, instead of having to beg and be a burden on someone else.

Just what part of that doesn't make sense?

[abuali]

On the contrary Allah (swt) in all his communications (holy Quran, prophet and messengers and imams) clearly instructs us very clearly that all knowledge and logic in the world would be useless without faith. Faith as you know dictates following the laws of Allah (swt) unflinchingly even when our limited reason and logic may dictate otherwise. And sources of the laws of Allah(swt) is the Quran and the life and teachings of the Holy Prophet (saww) and his ahl.

So I am sorry to say but when our logic and reason contradicts a clear guidance I will have to take the side of the guidance of Allah (swt).

Secondly your example is relative. It's like saying that a man praying at home in order to pray jamaat with his family is doing a better deed than the man praying in jamaat in the masjid.

Since Allah (swt) has clearly instructed that what's better for a man is to pray in jamaat in the masjid our so called 'reasoning' that contradicts this instruction is clearly in error.

Likwise if Allah(swt) has instructed his Prophet (saww) to instruct the woman on what's better for her, we with our extremely limited logic and reasoning are in no position to argue otherwise as any argument against the law of Allah (swt) will be in gross error.

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

But the point is there is no mention of it being better or best, just good. The word 'khayr' is a noun in arabic which simply means good. It has no comparative or superlative degrees so 'better' (comparative) and 'best' (superlative) are totally out of question. You are stretching it to mean what you THINK it means...that is your OPINION, not an Islamic fact.

There are more similar ahadith where the Ma'sumeen (pbut) mention "the KHAYR (good) out of your women..." and all of them talk about wajib things. Here's one example:
The H. Prophet (saw) has said, "The KHAYR of your women is she who is chaste and pious..." Wasailushia, vol 20, p30.

On the other hand, when the Ma'sumeen (pbut) talk about the best, this is what is comes as:
1. Imam Sadiq has said, "Surely there is always a form of worship better than another, and love for the Ahlul Bayt is the AFDHAL (best) form of worship." Biharul Anwar, vol 27, p91.

2.Imam Baqir has said, "The AFDHAL (best) means by which servants can obtain nearness to Allah (swt), Mighty and Glorious, is obedience to Allah (swt), obedience to the Messenger (saw), and obedience to those charged with authority." Al-Kafi, vol 1, p187.

Now, it is clear that when the Ma'sumeen mean best, they say it.

In regard to your statement,

Interpreting the saying of Bibi Fatema(as) under discussion here, whereby she mentions 'the best among women...' to mean hijab would be similar to assuming her saying something like 'the best among the men are those who pray'.

Since Hijab is already wajib, it is a minimum requirement. Its the mustahabbat (after performing wajibat) which make one person better than the other. The one who does not do even the basic wajibat, is not even fit to compete for the 'better' or 'best'.

It is interesting to note that the above two ahadith discussing the 'best' ARE indeed talking about wajibat, tawalla, which is a furu-ud-deen just like prayer is. :)

And if these ahadith fail to convince you still, then we, as individuals are free to think, believe and do as we deem fit.