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[Esm'ail]

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
I heard there are hidden books in Islam, is it true?

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

wa alaykum salaam

huh?

[Esm'ail]

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
Whats with the "huh?" sister Karim?
I'm not saying that there are hidden books in Islam which I'm guessing there is not.
But I wanted you to check on this issue and give ur answer.
Just wanna confirm.


And when I inspired the disciples, (saying): Believe in Me and in My messenger, they said: We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered (unto Thee) "we are muslims".
When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Is thy Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven? He said: Observe your duty to Allah, if ye are true believers.
They said:) We wish to eat thereof, that we may satisfy our hearts and know that thou hast spoken truth to us, and that thereof we may be witnesses

Just like the disciples, I wish to know the truth so tht I maybe a witness to the truth.

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

Wa alaykum salaam

The 'huh' meant 'what on earth is he talking about?'

What exactly do you mean when you say 'hidden books'?

There are several narrations that state that Imam Aly compiled the Qur'an in order of revelation; it included the full commentary of each verse. The people refused to use it after the Prophet (saw)'s demise. Probably because the verses extol the virtues of the Ahlul Bayt. Imam Aly vowed that the book would not see the light of day till Al-Mahdi (atfs) reappeared. It was passed from one Imam to another. So you could call that a hidden book.

Maybe there are more books like that. Why did you ask about hidden books? Have you heard something against Islam?

[Esm'ail]

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
Yes, I have heard something against Islam.
I was asking, most Muslims say that Christianity has hidden some books, thats why it is what it is right now.
But what about Islam? If it also has hidden books, is it true that they are hidding something. Something against their religion?

Well, did Imam Aly(pbuh) consider the other Qur'an to be the word of ALLAH(swt)? :)

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

Wa alaykum salaam

Christianity did not hide books. Some Christians chose to. Specifically those at Nicaea.

But what about Islam? If it also has hidden books, is it true that they are hidding something. Something against their religion?

Good question. One I already answered in my previous post.

Remember I mentioned in the Holy Prophets(pbut) and Holy Imams(pbut) thread that Shia Ithna'asharism is what it is today because of the Imams are the protectors of Islam? The Prophet (saw) declared that he was leaving behind two weighty things to hold on to-the Quran and the Ahlul Bayt. The Ahlul Bayt complement the Quran. As I mentioned earlier, the Quran Imam Aly compiled was arranged according to the occasion of revelation and it had the commentary of each verse. You mentioned in another discussion that Imam Aly is not mentioned in the Quran, and Qarrar pointed out that he is...in about 300 verses, by characteristics and deeds. The caliph after the Prophet (saw) refused to acknowledge the work of Imam Aly because the rank of Imam Aly would be obvious and this guy's caliphate would then be in danger.

The Quran Imam Aly compiled was the meaning of the word of Allah (swt). Note that it was NOT another Quran (as you referred to it). It is the same Quran, with a different arrangement of verses. The Imams were in possession of it and disclosed parts of it to their companions. They wanted it to be publicized. The commentary we have available today is mostly from the ahadith of Imam Hasan Askari .

So here's the answer to your question, if you haven't figured out what I'm driving at yet. Yes, the Muslims at the time immediately after the Prophet (saw) were hiding something. Something that the Imams wanted to be public knowledge. Wanna know what these 'companions' of the Prophet (saw) wanted to hide?

Imam Aly has said "The Christians split into seventy-two sects. Seventy-one of them will be in the Fire and one of them will be in heaven, and it is the sect that followed Simon, the executor of Jesus. And this community will split into seventy-three sects. Seventy-two of them will be in the Fire. One of them will be in heaven, and it is the sect that follows the executor of Muhammad.’

Then he beat his breast with his hand and said, ‘Thirteen sects, among the seventy-three sects, will accept my kindness and love, but one of them will be in heaven. It is the middle rite, and the twelve sects will be in the Fire.' " (Bihàr, 28, 4, 5)

They wanted to hide the true status of the Ahlul Bayt, because they wanted to maintain their rule (just like Constantine did). These 'companions' were the reason that the religion split up into 73 sects, only one of which has the truth. They are the reason Islam is what it is right now. Extremism? Their fault. Terrorism? Their fault. Anything you find Muslims professing that isn't really Islam? Yep, that's right...Their fault.

[Esm'ail]

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
Thanx sister Karim, ur a really nice lady preacher as I said. :)
I never knew the knowledge of Imam Ali(A.S) was that amazing mashaALLAH.

But as ALLAH(swt) said in the Holy Qur'an, that in whatever u say u should bring a clear proof.
Well what I was asking is, can u mention the so-called 13sects which have accepted the kindness and love of Imam Ali(A.S)?

And about being thrown in the fire, I don't think if everybody will be thrown in the fire. I mean ALLAH(swt) is the most merciful right?

I have a feeling inshaALLAH this thing is gonna get interesting.

[Esm'ail]

What is the sect of christianity which followed Simon the executor of Prophet Jesus(A.S)?
If u know tht is.

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

Wa alaykum salaam

No, I don't know what sect of Christianity followed Simon Peter. The Unitarian theology is pretty close to the truth, but they reject the Virgin birth and other miracles, claiming they are merely symbolic ways of speaking. Maybe the sect that followed Simon Peter died out. I think it did, since all existing sects are based on the Bible, which is majorly the teachings of Paul, who was opposed to the teachings of Peter. Maybe that was the reason that Prophet Muhammad (saw) was sent.

As for all the stray sects being thrown in the fire...it's possible that they will be thrown in a purgatory form of hell and not into eternal hell. Allah (swt) knows best.

I don't speak without proof. Here is a list of the 13 sects which have accepted the loving and kindness of Imam Aly . The sect that is the right one will have no beliefs contrary to the Quran and reason.
1. The Druze: A branch of Ismailism. Believe in reincarnation. They do not accept converts to their religion and keep most of their beliefs secret.

2. The Alawite: Also known as Nusairis by other muslims. Claim to be Ithna'asharis. Believe that Imam Aly was God and that there are/were other incarnations of God. Keep most of their beliefs secret. Do not accept converts

3. The Zaidis: They take Zaid bin Aly, brother of Imam Muhammad Baqir , as their 5th Imam. It is interesting to note that the sect was started by the companions of Zaid and Zaid himself rejected it. He accepted the Imamate of his brother.

4. The Alevids: Claim to be Itha'asharis. Keep most of their beliefs secret. Believe that faith, without actions, is enough to get salvation. They do not pray, pay zakaat or perform hajj. Consumption of alcohol is allowed and they drink during their religious ceremonies.

5. The Bektashi: Claim to be Itha'asharis. They are trinitarians, holding that Allah, Muhammad and Aly are one entity.

6. The Qilzibash: Claim to be Ithna'asharis. Hold that the 12 Imams are divine and that one of their leaders and founders, Ismail, was also an incarnation of God.

7. The Fatimid: I do not know much. Will find out and let you know later. Or you could find out for us.

8. Nurbakshi Kubrawiya: Same as above

9. Oveysi Kubrawiya: Same as above

10. The Hamadani: Same as above

11. Nizaris: Known as Ismailis. Their kalima adds the phrase 'aliyullah' to the shahadatain. This means 'Aly is Allah'. They do not practice Islam. (Do not pray, go for Hajj, etc). They do sajdah to Aga Khan, who they believe is the Imam and the incarnation of Imam Aly and God.

12. The Bohora: A form of authoritarianism. The leader, called the Dai, is supreme and must be obeyed under all circumstances. What stands out the most about this sect is the fact that they take what the Dai says as absolute truth, even if he says the sun revolves around the earth (they really do believe that!). They are not allowed to question anything. They are not allowed to read the translation of the Quran, for fear of mistranslation. Maybe someone is trying to hide the truth from them.

13. The Ja'fari Ithna'ashari: The mainstream Shias- us. The logical, reasoning Shias.

It is reported that 'Alí ('a) said, "The Apostle of Allah said, 'The example of you in my community is as the example of Christ Jesus the son of Mary. His people split into three parties: a party of believers, and they were the disciples, a party of his enemies, and they were the Jews, and a party that exaggerated about him, and they left the faith. And verily, my community will split into three parties on account of you. One party is your Shí'ah, and they are the believers; one party is your enemy, they are the doubters; and one party are those who exaggerate about you, and they are the deniers. O 'Alí! You are in heaven, and your Shí'ah, and the lovers of your Shí'ah. And your enemy and the exaggerator are in the fire.'"
(Bihàr, 25, 264, 4)

Out of the sects that claim to follow Imam Aly , those that exaggerate about him, claim he is divine, are wrong, and he has denounced them. They are considered to be disbelievers by the other Shias.

[Esm'ail]

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
I have to admit that ur reply is amazing sister Karim.

The reason is the 13 sects that u mentioned and the ahadith of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) that Imam Ali(A.S) narrated and which u quoted.

About the ahadith, it reminded me of this article which I read in the internet. It said after the ascension of Prophet Jesus Christ(pbuh), there were 3 sects of christianity. One is called the Jewish Christians, another the Gnostic Christians and lastly the Pauline christians.
But the Jewish Christian movement died out. But the interesting thing is that the Pauline Christian movement actually spread to the Roman empire.
The thing is, the Jewish Christian wanted the gentiles to follow the Jewish Laws(circumcised) and Believe in Prophet Jesus Christ(pbuh).
But Paul said that the gentiles do not have to follow Jewish Laws to be christians. U just need faith just like the Alevids (Ithna' asheris) .
But I sometimes don't get Paul, at the sametime he says that u have to observe the law. :?
I will give u the verses from the bible, inshaALLAH.

But this site has the best article to show you what I mean. Check it out plse.
http://christianity.about.com/od/denomi ... ions_3.htm

Ok back to the 13sects thingy. Wow , I thought u wouldn't get proof.
But I have noticed that most of them call themselves Ithna' asheris.

Hey ur last statement.
13. The Ja'fari Ithna'ashari: The mainstream Shias- us. The logical, reasoning Shias.
What if ur saying this just because its ur faith?
To give me full proof,
Give me three ways or four on how to prove ur religion false. (Falsification test)

And by the way, why do you call urself Ithna' asheris?
I know Ithna' asheris means 12 fine its a nice name.
But because the name is used by disbelievers, don't you think its better to use another name that might fit you? (I'm sorry forgive me if my questions bother you).
Instead of using the same name which disbelievers use, I mean it might affect even the recognition of the truth of ur religion.

Example:-
Somebody might be asking of the theology of Jafari Ithna' asheris, but he doesn't know tht ur Jafari, instead they say only Ithna' asheris.
Then the person asked maybe is a person who knows the theology of the Alawite to be the theology of the Ithna' asheri belief.

Do you really think the Jafar Ithna' asheri will ever get their truly deserved recognition? Honestly look at this issue.
I strongly believe we should change the name Ithna' asheri. Because the name itself is already corrupted.

The theology of the Alawite ithna' ahseri, if I would have heard tht theology before hearing the theology of the Jafar ithna' ahseri one, honestly I would have never wanted to be an ithna' ahseri. Leave tht, I would have never wanted to be a muslim.

Its really sad u are sharing the same name with the disbelievers.

Its really sad u even call urselves shias.
U have to call urselves muslims, just tht.

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

wa alaykum

Its really sad u are sharing the same name with the disbelievers.

Its really sad u even call urselves shias.
U have to call urselves muslims, just tht.

You reasoning is weak. The hadith of the Prophet (saw) mentioning that there will be 12 Imams is popular. That is why many sects call themselves Ithna'asharis. There are terrorists who call themselves Muslims. Are we supposed to drop the name 'Muslim', too? I cannot speak for everyone, only for myself. When asked for my religion I always say 'Islam'. But I don't see anything anything wrong with 'Shia'. We're proud to be the followers of Imam Aly . Ithan'asharis...proud to be followers of the 12 Imams.

I couldn't help noticing that whenever you talk about Shias and Muslims in general, you say 'u'. I am forced to ask...Who are you? A shia? A sunni? Are you even Muslim? You sound very Christian.

I have a feeling the Jewish Christians were the ones following Peter. Because Jesus himself said that he had come to enforce the Law, not to abolish it. (Matthew 5:1)

13. The Ja'fari Ithna'ashari: The mainstream Shias- us. The logical, reasoning Shias.
What if ur saying this just because its ur faith?
To give me full proof,
Give me three ways or four on how to prove ur religion false. (Falsification test)

You seem to have been reading Lee Strobel, too. I can't think of anything that would prove my religion wrong, possibly because I belong to it. So you come up with any way you can prove my faith wrong and I'll prove you wrong. That way you have your falsification test. Deal?

[Esm'ail]

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
Ok its a deal sister Karim. :)

But ur mistaking about the Lee Strobel thingy. The reason is, about the falsification test I mean its really common.
Nowadays in the world of science and logics, if a person claims to have discovered a new theory, the board of scientists don't try proving it false because nobody has the time to go through ur whole theory, but rather they ask u to give 3 ways to prove ur theory wrong. Which is called the Falsification test.

Example:
When Albert Einstein discovered his new theory of Relativity, before it was accepted he had to give three ways of proving it wrong.

But another interesing thing, in the Holy Qur'an ALLAH(swt) gives three ways on how to prove that if the Holy Qur'an is a word of GOD or not.
1. If it would have been from anyone other than ALLAH(swt), you would have found many contradictions therein.
Meaning: Challenging mankind to find if there is any contradictions.

2. Make a surah which is of the like of the ones in the Holy Qur'an, and call anyone besides ALLAH(swt) if ur truthful.
Meaning: Challenging mankind and Jinn to try making a surah like that of the ones in the Qur'an and prove its validity without the help of ALLAH(swt).

3. Try making even a single verse like the ones in the Holy Qur'an.
Meaning: Again challenging mankind. :)

That shows that for any person whose sure of what he brings forth, should know how to prove it false. But I'm not trying to say that ur not sure of what ur bringing forth Sister Karim, don't get me wrong.

Ok lets get back to the religious part.
Fatimahzahra Karim wrote:
I couldn't help noticing that whenever you talk about Shias and Muslims in general, you say 'u'. I am forced to ask...Who are you? A shia? A sunni? Are you even Muslim? You sound very Christian.
Ur really being harsh on me don't u think sister Karim?
Harsh such tht u overlook some stuff.
Watch this
Esm'ail wrote:
I strongly believe we should change the name Ithna' asheri. Because the name itself is already corrupted.
Got ya!!
Satisfied now.

My reasoning, I do agree its weak.
I will make sure next time inshaALLAH I will come with even more concrete reasoning than this.

Ok I will start working on the deal we made, about the falsification test. InshaALLAH. :)

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

No, I don't think I'm being harsh. Merely honest. It is known that when one pretends to be what one is not, errors slip in. I thought this the case and asked for clarification. Seriously...who are you?

[Esm'ail]

I am a Muslim. A real devoted muslim.
Trust me now!
Don't mind my errors they don't mean anything. I'm still strong in faith.
Just proving what I believe is not to be doubted, thats why I'm seeking ur help sister Karim and all my fellow muslims and praying to ALLAH(swt) to guide me.
U don't need to doubt me, honestly. :)

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

Poa. If you say so...Allah (swt) knows best...What I think doesn't matter. It's what God knows that counts.