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#10723
Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.
I have heard this one ahadith, narrated by one of the companions of the Prophet(SAW) that the Prophet said," After the Judgement day, there will be a position which is the most exalted position by ALLAH(swt) which has never been given to any creature. But that position will be meant for one of these five Holy Prophets. Prophet Jesus(Issa ibn Maryam) (pbuh), Prophet Musa(pbuh), Prophet Ibrahim(pbuh), Prophet Nuh(pbuh) and Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)." And after saying this, the Prophet(SAW) also asked for his ummah to pray for him to ALLAH(swt), so that ALLAH may grant him this position. And the Prophet(SAW) said that he won't forget those who will pray for him so that he may get that position.
But I'm asking a question, why do people still consider holy Imams(pbut) greater than the Holy Prophets(pbut)? If thats the case!
Holy Imams were great, I don't deny it. But greater than the Holy Prophets(pbut)! that I doubt. Cuz the purpose of the Holy Imams(pbut) is to guide the people and to show the Muslims how to follow the Islamic shariah in the right way as prescribed by the Prophet(SAW).
But the Holy Prophets(pbut) were brought by ALLAH(swt) to guide the people and even give them the right path(religion), not show but give them the right path as prescribed by ALLAH(swt) for that time.
E.g:- Prophet Jesus(Issa ibn Maryam)(pbut) brought Injeel, Prophet Musa brought Torati, Prophet Dawood(pbuh) brought Zabur, Prophet Ibrahim(pbuh) also had his own book, Prophet Muhammad(SAW) brought the Holy Qur'an. All these were due to the grace of Almighty ALLAH(swt).
Thats why I don't actually agree with the theory that the Holy Imams(pbut) are greater than the Holy Prophets(pbut).
By Fatimah Zahra Karim
#10734
wa alaykum salaam

The hadith you quote has been narrated by one of the Imams also. He said that in addition to these Prophets, 4 Imams will also be there: Imam Hussain (as), Imam Aly Ridha (as) and I'm not sure about the other 2. So the hadith does nothing to support your point of view.

Secondly, It is narrated in an authentic hadith that when Imam Mahdi (atfs) reappears, Prophets Isa (as) will himself offer to pray behind him, thus acknowledging The Imam's superiority. One can only pray behind someone who is greater in status. (this was the reason that Prophet Muhammad [saw] never prayed behind anyone else).

A well-known hadith from Prophet Muhammad (saw) says that the scholars from his umma are greater than the Prophets of the Bani Israil. Aren't the Imams, who are the most learned of all the scholars of the umma of the Prophet (saw), greater than these Prophets?

The point you mentioned to support your view-that the Prophets brought new shariahs in the form of scriptures, makes them greater than the Imams since the Imams are just there to show us what the Prophet (saw) brought, makes me think that you haven't really thought about the role of the Imams. Without the Imams to preserve Islam, Islam would have ended up corrupted just like Judaism and Christianity. You must be aware of the hadith of Prophet Muhammad (saw) where he mentions that after him his umma will be divided into 73 sects, only one of which will be on the right path. It is the Imams who have kept us on the right path!! To prove what I'm saying...Look at the differences between the Sunni and the Shi'a. The differences exist because of our guidance from the Imams. Look at the differences between the Bohoras, Ismailis, and the Ithna'asharis. The Bohoras still believe in the geocentric theory. They also believe that Prophet Isa (as) died on the cross even though the Qur'an explicitly states that he did not. The Ismailis call themselves Muslims, but do they really believe in Islam? Part of their Kalima is "Aliyullah" meaning Aly is Allah!!! I believe that the Ithna'asharis have the uncorrupted version of Islam only because Allah (swt) appointed the Imams do preserve it.

Being Ithna'asharis, I think we should not underestimate our Imams. We should thank Allah (swt) for them and pray for the early reappearance of the 12th Imam. Amin.
Last edited by Fatimah Zahra Karim on 23 May 2007, 14:01, edited 1 time in total.
By Esm'ail
#10736
Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.
But distortions done by Humans doesn't degrade the level and the quality of those who brought the scriptures. Like Prophet Issa ibn Maryam(pbut) he could bring the dead to life, I mean I have never heard of any Imam do that or any other Muslim scholar.
But try checking for me were did u get all those ahadiths from that u used. I just want to check on them.
By Esm'ail
#10738
And another thing, I don't think the person leading the prayers makes him superior than all the Mumin(beleivers) whom he is leading.
Because even I heard that when Prophet Issa ibn Maryam(pbut) descends from heaven, his first destination from heaven will be Damascus. Then he will go to Mecca. Whereby the Imam Mahdi(pbuh) will notice him. And Imam Mahdi(pbuh) will let Prophet Issa ibn Maryam(pbut) lead the prayers, but Prophet Issa ibn Maryam(pbut) will deny to lead the prayers and he will tell Imam Mahdi(pbuh) that it is not his time, for he is the Prophet of the nation before Muhammad(SAW). Therefore you descendant of the Prophet(SAW) ur worthy of leading the prayers but not because ur superior than me.
Another thing is that Prophet Issa ibn Maryam(pbut) did that, so that the promise of ALLAH(swt) towards the Prophet(SAW) is fulfilled and not that the Imam is superior than him. Because all the Prophets(pbut) are brothers with one religion.
Just like in this one hadith which says that the Prophet(SAW) captured a shaitan while he was praying, because the shaitan was distracting him from his prayers. So when he captured the shaitan, he wanted to chain him/ put it under his command, so that all the children and adults of Mecca can witness the amazing creation of ALLAH(swt).
But he remembered that if he does that, he will be breaking the promise of ALLAH(swt) towards his brother Prophet Sulayman(pbuh), that he be the only human to have the ability of commanding the Jinns and no one else.
Well I'm asking u a question does that mean Prophet Sulayman(pbuh) is greater than Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
And another thing I don't know of that ahadith that, the Muslim scholars are greater than the Prophets of Bani Israel.
Even the Holy Qur'an mentions the Prophets of Bani Israel mostly and not even a single place does it mention the Muslim scholars.
Don't get me wrong I respect and believe in the Holy Imams(pbut) but they have to be given their status and pray for them that ALLAH's peace and blessings be upon them. AMEEN.
Thanx a lot for trying to answer my questions. But still bear with me and don't group me among the stubborn. :)
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By Muhammad Mahdi
#10741
Many of the hadiths you state, have no references. Could you please provide the references as a few of the "hadiths" are incorrect.

I would like to draw your attention to sura al baqarah verse 124.

"And remember when his Lord tried Ibrahim with his commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a LEADER for mankind. And (Ibrahim) said:And of my offspring?(Will there be leaders?). He said: My covenant include not the wrongdoers.

You must be knowing, that Ibrahim was a great prophet. This ayat tells us that Ibrahim became an Imam after he was tried, and at a very old age in his life.(Since, he talks about his offspring).

On the other hand, our 12 Imams were imams as soon as they came to this world.

BTW, not all prophets were worthy enough of recieving the position of being an Imam. Ibrahim was of the few.
By Esm'ail
#10743
Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.
But if the Prophets are sinless and infallible, why shouldn't they be worthy of receiving Imamate. Is there anyone who is better than the one who is infallible?
By Esm'ail
#10745
And Prophet Issa ibn Maryam(pbut) is going to be the one who is gonna kill Dajjal not Imam Mahdi(pbuh). :)
By Fatimah Zahra Karim
#10746
wa alaykum salaam

There are many degrees of Taqwa, the lowest being keeping away from haraam and doing what is wajib...All the Prophets were sinless and they performed all wajibaats. But the Imams were a stage higher in that they were infallible (sinless) and they also stayed away from all makrooh (discouraged) things. For example, Imam Aly (as) is quoted to have said that he had never eaten of the plant that Prophet Adam (as) was told not to go near in heaven.
And Prophet Issa ibn Maryam(pbut) is going to be the one who is gonna kill Dajjal not Imam Mahdi(pbuh).
and what is that supposed to prove? It was Imam Aly (as) and not the Prophet who slayed so many infidels in the battles. That doesnt make Imam Aly greater than the Prophet Muhammad (saw)

ps:Imams are lower in status than only one prophet ie Prophet Muhammad (saw)
By Esm'ail
#10748
Now u want to tell me that the Imams were more perfect than the Prophets, although both were infallible?
I understood what u said but eating something which Prophet Adam(pbuh) ate is haraam. Even its plant don't think the Prophets are of really high status to do such a thing?
Although its not really actually a sin to some people.
By Esm'ail
#10749
And the people who were allowed by ALLAH(swt) to try convincing the Devil to ask for forgiveness to ALLAH(swt), were all prophets of Bani Israel except for the Prophet(SAW). :)
Thats why I find it confusing.
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By Muhammad Mahdi
#10750
Now u want to tell me that the Imams were more perfect than the Prophets, although both were infallible?

I understood what u said but eating something which Prophet Adam(pbuh) ate is haraam. Even its plant don't think the Prophets are of really high status to do such a thing?
Although its not really actually a sin to some people.

And the people who were allowed by ALLAH(swt) to try convincing the Devil to ask for forgiveness to ALLAH(swt), were all prophets of Bani Israel except for the Prophet(SAW).
Thats why I find it confusing.
I dont understand you. what are you trying to say?
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By qarrar
#10760
Sinlessness and infallibility are two different levels on a strict construction. To be sinless is to just not commit sins, which sounds simple enough. Infallibility goes further, it is as was correctly mentioned by Fatimah Zahra Karim not to commit makruh acts and also not to commit tarq e ola. Tarq e ola is a difficult concept for me to define but by way of example, when Prophet Nuh said of the black dog that it was God’s most ugliest creation that was a tarq e ola.

Our 14 Masums are infallibles and such cannot be said of any prophet living or dead and this includes the Ulil `Adham Prophets. The infallibility of our 14 masumeen is endorsed by God himself in the Quran in the famous verse Surah 33: Ayah 33.

To quote one hadith that should to a degree clear any lingering doubts: "He who wants to see Adam (as) in his knowledge, Noah (as) in his determination, in his clemency, Moses (as) in his intelligence and Jesus (as) in his religious devotion should look at Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as)" (Riyadh al Nadira Volume 2 page 239, Dhikr Ali ibn Abi Talib)
By Fatimah Zahra Karim
#10789
check out 5:55. It says "Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow..." Sunnis and Shi'as all agree that the verse was revealed in honour of Imam Aly (as). The beggar was Jibrail in disguise and the zakaat (which is 2.5%) given by Imam Aly (as) was the ring used by Prohet Sulaiman to control his kingdom. Imagine the rank of Imam Aly (as) then. Was it not greater than that of Prophet Sulayman?
By Fatimah Zahra Karim
#10790
(duplicated by mistake)
Last edited by Fatimah Zahra Karim on 23 May 2007, 18:16, edited 1 time in total.
By Fatimah Zahra Karim
#10791
Another thing...Imam Mahdi (atfs) is in current possession of the ring and will use it when he reappears.

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