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Discuss general religious issues that affect all of us in our daily lives.
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sumayya
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Postby sumayya » 04 Feb 2007, 16:17

So coca cola is haraam :o ?

I always thought its better not to drink coke because of its connections to the zionists (the whole conspiracy story) etc. but it containing alcohol i never heard of that ! besides noone really knows the recipe of coca cola and those who claim to know it are making false statements since it was never revealed !
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Postby qarrar » 04 Feb 2007, 20:44

Two of the three definitions put forward by you point that ‘purported’ means alleged or claimed which is different from words such as certain, definitive and convinced. No one would dare use these words to put forward their argument that coke contains alcohol. I hope you can see subtle difference between the two.

sumayya wrote: no one really knows the recipe of coca cola and those who claim to know it are making false statements since it was never revealed !


At last another sane person joins the argument.

Muhammad Mehdi claims to know it… :roll:
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Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 06 Feb 2007, 11:54

eres a scenario Qarrar.

You go to mosque. After majlis there is fateha. Now, the cook comes and says that a few, out of the hundreds of fatehas prepared are poisoned. Will you eat any fateha?
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Postby qarrar » 06 Feb 2007, 19:51

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:Will you eat any fateha?

Yes...and your point being :?:
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Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 07 Feb 2007, 16:17

Yes...and your point being


My point being, a normal perosn would not eat the fatehas for fear of being poisoned, whatever small the probability. The same way, if there is the slightest chance that coca cola has alcohol, a normal person would avoid it.
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Postby qarrar » 09 Feb 2007, 00:40

I see you stressed on the word ‘normal’. Well my reasoning for eating that possibly poisoned fateha would boil down to faith. I have faith that if a good deed is performed then no ill shall trouble you…people have been cured by eating niyaz and fateha from gatherings that mourn and perform azadari of Aba Abdillah (as) it has nothing to do with normality.

You use the analogy of poisoned fateha because you see it in the light of mathematical probability of dieing and I see it as God’s way of testing our faith.

Now answering your main point that there is a chance that coke contains alcohol and that’s why it should not be consumed, well those are baseless rumours with no solid evidence in support of them.

Here’s a suggestion, why done you test coke for alcohol, I am sure the Al Muntazir Islamic Seminary secondary school laboratory would be accommodating. I will even suggest the tests to you…

Flame test…try and set coke on fire with a naked flame and if it does catch fire then there is a chance that it may contain alcohol.

Distillation test….put a set quantity of coke in a distilling bottle and boil it with the distilling apparatus around it. If liquid is gathered at the 76-79 degree mark then that’s a positive test for alcohol. Then you could set fire to this liquid which I can guarantee will catch fire because it will be pure alcohol.

Do let me know how you get on with the experiments….and if you do get positive results just have them verified by three momeen men who can testify that distilling coke resulted in alcohol being produced and I will myself preach to people to stop drinking coke.
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Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 09 Feb 2007, 09:56

qarrar wrote:Now answering your main point that there is a chance that coke contains alcohol and that’s why it should not be consumed, well those are baseless rumours with no solid evidence in support of them. .


Actually, they are not baseless rumours. I have provided much evidence that it may contain alcohol. I was waiting for the right moment to unleash the final evidence that I was holding back. I will do so in my next post.

Here’s a suggestion, why done you test coke for alcohol, I am sure the Al Muntazir Islamic Seminary secondary school laboratory would be accommodating. I will even suggest the tests to you…

Flame test…try and set coke on fire with a naked flame and if it does catch fire then there is a chance that it may contain alcohol.

Distillation test….put a set quantity of coke in a distilling bottle and boil it with the distilling apparatus around it. If liquid is gathered at the 76-79 degree mark then that’s a positive test for alcohol. Then you could set fire to this liquid which I can guarantee will catch fire because it will be pure alcohol.

Do let me know how you get on with the experiments….and if you do get positive results just have them verified by three momeen men who can testify that distilling coke resulted in alcohol being produced and I will myself preach to people to stop drinking coke


I had already thought of this after I first read about coke and alcohol. However, as I had previously said, the alcohol is in minute quantities (as I will prove in my next post), that the alcohol test will not show a positive result.
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Postby qarrar » 09 Feb 2007, 14:43

Muhammad Mahdi wrote: I was waiting for the right moment to unleash the final evidence that I was holding back. I will do so in my next post.

By all means

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:.. as I had previously said, the alcohol is in minute quantities, that the alcohol test will not show a positive result.

Fractional distillation perhaps or repeat distillation :?:
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Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 12 Feb 2007, 15:37

After the death of John Pemberton (founder of coke), the followig recipe was found in his papers.

* Citrate Caffein, 1 oz.
* Ext. Vanilla, 1 oz.
* Flavoring, 2.5 oz.
* F.E. Coco, 4 oz.
* Citric Acid, 3 oz.
* Lime Juice, 1 Qt.
* Sugar, 30 lbs.
* Water, 2.5 Gal.
* Caramel sufficient

Mix Caffeine Acid and Lime Juice in 1 Qt Boiling water add vanilla and flavoring when cool.

* Flavoring Oil Orange, 80
* Oil Lemon, 120
* Oil Nutmeg, 40
* Oil Cinnamon, 40
* Oil Coriander, 40
* Oil Neroli, 40
* Alcohol, 1 Qt.

let stand 24 hours.

SOURCE: For God, Country, and Coca-Cola: The Definitive History of the Great American Soft Drink and the Company That Makes It
by Mark Pendergrast



One can notice that coke contains alcohol. However, since qarrar does not notice this, let me bring something else to your attention. Coke contains VANILLA EXTRACT.

The above recipe as well as wikipedia certifies this.

So, what is wrong with vanilla extract?
heres some info.

Vanilla has three main commercial preparations
# whole bean,
# powder (pure ground beans or blended with sugar, starch or other ingredients)[4],
# extract

Since coke contains vanilla extract, I will forget the other two preparations.

Vanilla extract is made by percolating or macerating chopped vanilla beans with ethyl alcohol and water.
http://www.vanilla.com/html/facts-extracts.html

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration requires a minimum of 13.35 ounces of vanilla beans to a gallon of a minimum of 35% alcohol to 65% water mixture.

Since alcohol is used to extract vanilla, any substance with vanilla extract contains alcohol. this includes Coke!
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Postby xx_atika_xx » 12 Feb 2007, 21:38

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:
Since alcohol is used to extract vanilla, any substance with vanilla extract contains alcohol. this includes Coke!


And this probably includes almost all the items from any patisserie as they tend to commonly use vanilla extract as an ingredit.

Indeed, if I remember correctly, vanilla cakes are extremely popular in Dar and all the individuals and patisseries who make them use vanilla extract. Moreover, they have been served innumerably in religious occasions as Fatiha.

Indeed, if vanilla extract contains alcohol, then surely it would have been haraam to use it?

If not, then perhaps Br.Muhammed Mahdi, you would like to raise this issue with Aga Sistani (May Allah(s.w.t) grant him a long life) and clarify its haram/halal status which would also give alot of the answers to the ongoing debate.
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Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 12 Feb 2007, 21:53

xx_atika_xx wrote:And this probably includes almost all the items from any patisserie as they tend to commonly use vanilla extract as an ingredit.


True. Which makes those things not halaal.


Indeed, if I remember correctly, vanilla cakes are extremely popular in Dar and all the individuals and patisseries who make them use vanilla extract. Moreover, they have been served innumerably in religious occasions as Fatiha.


just note, there is a difference between vanilla extract and vanillin. The extract contains alcohol, but vanillin (artificial) is halaal. Many home made products contain vanillin.

Indeed, if vanilla extract contains alcohol, then surely it would have been haraam to use it?
Yes :)
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Postby zalidina » 13 Feb 2007, 00:27

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:After the death of John Pemberton (founder of coke), the followig recipe was found in his papers.

* Citrate Caffein, 1 oz.
* Ext. Vanilla, 1 oz.
* Flavoring, 2.5 oz.
* F.E. Coco, 4 oz.
* Citric Acid, 3 oz.
* Lime Juice, 1 Qt.
* Sugar, 30 lbs.
* Water, 2.5 Gal.
* Caramel sufficient

Mix Caffeine Acid and Lime Juice in 1 Qt Boiling water add vanilla and flavoring when cool.

* Flavoring Oil Orange, 80
* Oil Lemon, 120
* Oil Nutmeg, 40
* Oil Cinnamon, 40
* Oil Coriander, 40
* Oil Neroli, 40
* Alcohol, 1 Qt.

let stand 24 hours.

SOURCE: For God, Country, and Coca-Cola: The Definitive History of the Great American Soft Drink and the Company That Makes It
by Mark Pendergrast



One can notice that coke contains alcohol. However, since qarrar does not notice this, let me bring something else to your attention. Coke contains VANILLA EXTRACT.

The above recipe as well as wikipedia certifies this.

So, what is wrong with vanilla extract?
heres some info.

Vanilla has three main commercial preparations
# whole bean,
# powder (pure ground beans or blended with sugar, starch or other ingredients)[4],
# extract

Since coke contains vanilla extract, I will forget the other two preparations.

Vanilla extract is made by percolating or macerating chopped vanilla beans with ethyl alcohol and water.
http://www.vanilla.com/html/facts-extracts.html

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration requires a minimum of 13.35 ounces of vanilla beans to a gallon of a minimum of 35% alcohol to 65% water mixture.

Since alcohol is used to extract vanilla, any substance with vanilla extract contains alcohol. this includes Coke!

i have been reading this tread since its started, cudnt be bothered to put my opinion until muhammed put the "coca cola recipe" on here. i m not trying to side with qarrar or muhammed here so dont attack. just putting facts on here n the way i interpret them.
that isnt coke's recipe firstly because its cokes recipe is a world famous trade secret that means its not publicly available to read n secondly i read this on abc australia "The FBI says it's arrested three people who were trying to sell the secret recipe for Coca-Cola to the company's arch-rival, Pepsi, for $2 million." if ppl can just access the recipe over the internet i dont think the fbi wud get involved (btw that news script is from 6months ago the book u r refering to was written in 1993 although it has been republished a few times the last edition was from 2003. so u cant be 100% sure it contains vanilla extract.
oh n btw according to the law vanila extract has to have 35% alcohol or else its called vanila flavouring

in "a code of practice for muslims in the west" it says "all kinds of packed food and thier extracts r permissable for muslims even if he doubts that its ingredients might contain what is forbidden.... it is not obligatory on him to inquire about its ingredients" i read the other pages but they dont say anything abt drinks, but from the extract above i m assuming it means drinks as well but some1 mite wanna check with aga seestani coz the book is written in accordance to his laws
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Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 13 Feb 2007, 12:08

if ppl can just access the recipe over the internet i dont think the fbi wud get involved

The recipe I provided is the original one. i have provided sufficient references to verify its authenticity.


. so u cant be 100% sure it contains vanilla extract.



I can, because, The Coca-Cola Company is the world's largest consumer of natural vanilla extract.

http://www.myenglish.pl/artykuly_angiel ... p?tytul=48
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.o ... nilla.html

Also because all the purported recipes as well as the original recipe verify this claim.


all kinds of packed food and thier extracts r permissable for muslims even if he doubts that its ingredients might contain what is forbidden.... it is not obligatory on him to inquire about its ingredients"


Packed foods and their extracts. meaning extracts of packed foods?

the rule says even if one doubts.
Let me define the word doubt according to its islamic usage.
A doubt is when a person is not sure about something such that his state of mind conflicts between two choices evenly. Hence if a person has 60 percent certainty, it is not a doubt.

With all the evidence I have provided, form the purported recipes and the original containing alcohol, to the vanilla extract present in the drink, containing alcohol, I believe there is no room for doubt left.

remember the GOLDEN RULE. "When in doubt, leave it out"
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Postby qarrar » 13 Feb 2007, 16:30

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:
xx_atika_xx wrote:And this probably includes almost all the items from any patisserie as they tend to commonly use vanilla extract as an ingredit.

True. Which makes those things not halaal.

Indeed, if vanilla extract contains alcohol, then surely it would have been haraam to use it?
Yes :)


I would be very interested to know the level of education you hold both academic and religious.

You are very willing to issue these quasi fatwas and are very opinionated so before we take your word as the final say on the matter I for my sake must make certain that I am taking a knowledgeable mans/boys word for it rather than a loons.
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Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 13 Feb 2007, 17:03

Allah has granted us all with intelligence. You dont need someone to tell you that 1+1=2.
Once one has learnt the basics, the rest is to apply the basics to solve real life problems.

I assure you that I know the basics. Consuming alcohol is not permissible! Hence logically, any substance that contains alcohol becomes not permissible as well.
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