Wahhabis: Do they commonly shave their moustaches?

Dialogues, discussion and debates between other faiths and sects.
Sphynx
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 19:21

Wahhabis: Do they commonly shave their moustaches?

Postby Sphynx » 06 Sep 2009, 04:30

Salam,

Is it just me or the one which you've chosen looks like a Wahhabi? :roll:
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Face Avatars

Postby abuali » 06 Sep 2009, 04:44

does it?

how does a wahabi look like?
Sphynx
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 19:21

Re: Face Avatars

Postby Sphynx » 06 Sep 2009, 05:22

hasin wrote:how does a wahabi look like?


Without the mustache; just the beard. I'm not sure if that's exactly how it's to be described but I hope you get the point. :D
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Face Avatars

Postby abuali » 06 Sep 2009, 07:06

ahh!

I think thats more of a cultural thing rather than specific to wahabbis.

I am not sure. If anyone knows, pls advice
Sphynx
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 19:21

Re: [FAQ] Face Avatars

Postby Sphynx » 06 Sep 2009, 18:59

Salam,

It's commonly known to be specific to Wahhabis/Salafis or extremist Sunnis. They follow this hadith (in literal sense) mentioned in Sahih Muslim:

"Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) ordered us to trim the mustache closely and spare the beard" says Ibn Umar.
- Muslim, Hadith no. 449

Please read this:
The growth of Salafism is visible in many parts of Cairo since its adherents set themselves apart with their dress. Women wear the "niqab", a veil which shows only the eyes - if even that - rather than the "hijab" scarf that merely covers the hair. The men grow their beards long and often shave off mustaches to imitate Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). The word "salafi" in Arabic means "ancestor", hearkening back to a supposedly purer form of Islam said to have been practiced by Muhammad (PBUH) and his companions
in the 7th century. Salafism preaches strict segregation of the sexes and resists any innovation in religion or adoption of Western ways seen as immoral.

Another article:
Local mosque architectural styles, reflecting remarkable local cultural syntheses, disappear and are replaced by what many see as unaesthetic, even ugly, 'Wahhabi' equivalents; dargahs or Sufi shrines fall into ruin, being condemned as centres of 'idolatry'; men begin to sport beards and shave their mustaches and some even start to wear the thoub, the long flowing Arab gown; and women are forced or themselves willingly adopt the veil.


A Salafi fatwa site.

Salafi firebrand cleric being probed by the Australian police for his hate messages [news]:

Image

Finally, a picture of Wahhabi terrorists here:

Image

Although amongst Sunnis, there is a difference of opinion depending on the madhhab.

Whether it's cultural or not, it would be safe to conclude that the shaving of the mustache is implemented only by the Sunni sect, that too, by extremists which distinguishes them from other Muslims.
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: [FAQ] Face Avatars

Postby abuali » 06 Sep 2009, 21:45

Another article:
Local mosque architectural styles, reflecting remarkable local cultural syntheses, disappear and are replaced by what many see as unaesthetic, even ugly, 'Wahhabi' equivalents; dargahs or Sufi shrines fall into ruin, being condemned as centres of 'idolatry'; men begin to sport beards and shave their mustaches and some even start to wear the thoub, the long flowing Arab gown; and women are forced or themselves willingly adopt the veil.


this post seems to generalize all muslims (minus the so called muslims who dont wear hijab at all). Since when are only salafis who wear a veil?

I have met some shia who trim their moustaches (which is recommended by the prophet (pbuh) ) and i have even met some who remove the moustache completely. And hey, we all come across shias who remove their moustaches (and their beards too :D ).

Likewise I have come across wahabis who sport proper moustaches.

Whether it's cultural or not, it would be safe to conclude that the shaving of the mustache is implemented only by the Sunni sect, that too, by extremists which distinguishes them from other Muslims.


I think it would be a blatant error to brand someone as extremist just because they dont sport a moustache! Its not haraam to shave it. Its recommended to trim it. Besides most sunnis are peace loving muslims like most shias.

Finally, a picture of Wahhabi terrorists here:
Image

If you notice, the other two sport moustaches.

Plus, before we start believing news stories about 'muslim terrorists' we have to be sure to read between the lines. The propoganda of creating 'islamophobia' is well known in western countries.

In the Arab culture of the olden days and in several asian cultures (indian culture included) moustaches are symbols of manhoood. Thats why people who shave moustaches are looked down upon.

I have yet to come upon anything in Islam that would look down upon people who shave their moustaches.
Sphynx
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 19:21

Re: [FAQ] Face Avatars

Postby Sphynx » 07 Sep 2009, 00:43

hasin wrote:
Another article:
Local mosque architectural styles, reflecting remarkable local cultural syntheses, disappear and are replaced by what many see as unaesthetic, even ugly, 'Wahhabi' equivalents; dargahs or Sufi shrines fall into ruin, being condemned as centres of 'idolatry'; men begin to sport beards and shave their mustaches and some even start to wear the thoub, the long flowing Arab gown; and women are forced or themselves willingly adopt the veil.


this post seems to generalize all muslims (minus the so called muslims who dont wear hijab at all). Since when are only salafis who wear a veil?


That article is talking about Wahhabisation of a supposedly 'secular' and 'liberal' society. This biasedness is expected, but the point was not about hijab, but shaving of mustaches of the men, once they convert to the Wahhabi faith.

I have met some shia who trim their moustaches (which is recommended by the prophet (pbuh) ) and i have even met some who remove the moustache completely. And hey, we all come across shias who remove their moustaches (and their beards too :D ).


Trimming is recommended, not only of the mustache but also of the beard while shaving is not, as far as I'm aware. I've never seen any Ayatullah or layshia shaving off their mustaches. It's another thing, if the Shi'as shave off their beards completely including the mustaches, but personally, I've not seen any Shi'a shaving off their mustaches while keeping their beard.

I think it would be a blatant error to brand someone as extremist just because they dont sport a moustache!


The peaceful Sunnis whom I've come across do not shave their mustaches. This is based on my observation and I could be wrong obviously, having not seen/noticed a Sunni without mustache.

Of course, I'm not saying all Wahhabis sport such a kind of beard (without mustache), but it's normally them who keep it this way and therefore, are identified as such.
User avatar
Muhammad Mahdi
Ask Addict
Ask Addict
Posts: 1883
Joined: 09 Apr 2005, 22:42

Re: [FAQ] Face Avatars

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 07 Sep 2009, 01:55

I remember madrasah teacher once telling us that Imam Ali had said something like if it were possible to rid himself of the mustache, he would do it.
Image
The educated man has the right to manipulate the ignorant, if the ignorance of the of the ignorant is due to his own ignorance.
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Wahhabis: Do they commonly shave their moustaches?

Postby abuali » 09 Sep 2009, 19:04

Have split this topic here.

I think this is the best section for this discussion
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Wahhabis: Do they commonly shave their moustaches?

Postby abuali » 09 Sep 2009, 23:36

Sphynx wrote:
That article is talking about Wahhabisation of a supposedly 'secular' and 'liberal' society. This biasedness is expected, but the point was not about hijab, but shaving of mustaches of the men, once they convert to the Wahhabi faith.


Frankly, I would pay the least credence to an article that assumes that its only the salafis that adorn the veil. If we assume the article is correct that its wahabbis who shave off the moustache we should also assume that they are correct that only wahabbis who adorn veils and the rest of the muslims dont.


Sphynx wrote:Trimming is recommended, not only of the mustache but also of the beard while shaving is not, as far as I'm aware. I've never seen any Ayatullah or layshia shaving off their mustaches. It's another thing, if the Shi'as shave off their beards completely including the mustaches, but personally, I've not seen any Shi'a shaving off their mustaches while keeping their beard.


I have never come across any ruling that shaving moustache is not recommended. To the contrary I have read somewhere that one of our Imams (as) used to trim his moustache all the way till the roots.

As to the comparison with Ulemas, none of them wear trousers either. But that doesnt make wearing trousers 'not recommended' does it?

Sphynx wrote:The peaceful Sunnis whom I've come across do not shave their mustaches. This is based on my observation and I could be wrong obviously, having not seen/noticed a Sunni without mustache.

Of course, I'm not saying all Wahhabis sport such a kind of beard (without mustache), but it's normally them who keep it this way and therefore, are identified as such.


So if a peaceful sunni decides to shave off his moustache (as I have seen them do) would they have to pay the price by being branded as wahabbis?

Do you see the danger of stereotyping this way? Its following along the lines of messr's bush, blair et al., which has resulted in westerners stereotyping anyone with a beard or abaya as a terrorist.

I think there are two things that we are talking about:

1. Islamic point of view on shaving of moustache
2. Shaving of moustache when it becomes increasingly identified with an extremist sect

As far as the first is concerned, I have yet to come across anything that would make me believe its not recommended, let alone haraam.

As to the second, it would depend on how much it has become identified with the sect. This is debateable

(oh, and just in case, I did change my avatar :P )
Ustaz Hussein
Ask Novice
Ask Novice
Posts: 129
Joined: 11 Feb 2008, 17:02

Re: Wahhabis: Do they commonly shave their moustaches?

Postby Ustaz Hussein » 11 Sep 2009, 16:05

Maybe Wahhabis are like Sikhs who don't shave any hair from their body. Isn't this disgusting?
Sphynx
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 19:21

Re: Wahhabis: Do they commonly shave their moustaches?

Postby Sphynx » 11 Sep 2009, 19:18

hasin wrote:Frankly, I would pay the least credence to an article that assumes that its only the salafis that adorn the veil. If we assume the article is correct that its wahabbis who shave off the moustache we should also assume that they are correct that only wahabbis who adorn veils and the rest of the muslims dont.


I'd believe it is talking about the veil which covers the women in entirety. Like the one, which was forced by Taliban in Afghanistan.

Members of Wahhabi jama'ats (religious communities or groups) also differed from other Muslims in terms of appearance: the men sported long beards with shaven moustaches and wore shortened trousers while women wore chadors, which covered their entire bodies and faces.
http://www.gloria-center.org/meria/2005 ... manov.html

I have never come across any ruling that shaving moustache is not recommended. To the contrary I have read somewhere that one of our Imams (as) used to trim his moustache all the way till the roots.


Can you post it?

So if a peaceful sunni decides to shave off his moustache (as I have seen them do) would they have to pay the price by being branded as wahabbis?


If in India, then yes. All the Sunnis here who are converting to Wahhabism - Deobandis (Tabligi Jamaats) are the ones who are shaving off their mustaches. Even those who are from other parts of the world, from my observation, the Sunnis who have been heavily influenced by Wahhabis, are the ones shaving off their mustaches (posted one example above and here's another).

Just a point in my previous post on 'extremist' - by extremist, I meant those follow the literal interpretation of the Qur'an and ahadith, to the T.

(oh, and just in case, I did change my avatar :P )


At least this discussion was effective :P
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Wahhabis: Do they commonly shave their moustaches?

Postby abuali » 11 Sep 2009, 20:21

Ah, perhaps its different in India.

However, unless it was identified without reasonable doubt to be a practice of only the wahabi extremists, I still contend that it would be a fatal mistake in stereotyping. The political implications aside, should an innocent man who shaved off his mustache be accused because of the stereotyping, we will be in effect performing tohmat and creating discord.

Perhaps Ustaz Hussein can tell us if in his encounters with wahabis in Tanzania he has noticed this trend that you speak of.

'd believe it is talking about the veil which covers the women in entirety. Like the one, which was forced by Taliban in Afghanistan.


Read the article again. At best the author has minimal knowledge of Islam and that from the modern-western-'muslim' perspective. At worst the author has no knowledge of Islam and is going with the flow of the zionist media in vilifying muslims.

Are you saying that women are only forced into wearing the niqaab and burka? That a woman by herself cannot decide to do so? Yes taliban may have enforced a law, just like france did one against hijab, but that doesnt mean peace-loving muslims dont adorn the burqa or niqaab.

Can you post it?


I will look this up and post it inshallah. However the point stands: Innocent until proven guilty. I have not read anything that would make shaving of the mustache makrooh or haraam.

At least this discussion was effective :P


Actually, I had forgotten about the Ask addict avatar. When I saw couldn't resist using it 8)
Sphynx
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 19:21

Re: Wahhabis: Do they commonly shave their moustaches?

Postby Sphynx » 11 Sep 2009, 21:39

hasin wrote:Perhaps Ustaz Hussein can tell us if in his encounters with wahabis in Tanzania he has noticed this trend that you speak of.


Perhaps, Tanzania has yet to witness the intense Wahhabi propaganda and tabligh like it is done in other parts of the world. ;) I have a friend in Kenya, I can confirm this trend with her as she usually discusses about the Wahhabi influence spreading in Africa.

As for the article, I'm sorry, I don't see your point. You've just picked on one article (which we know is biased), overlooking the others, and bring up irrelevant points.

As for makruh or haraam, the discussion was never about fiqhi rulings, rather that such a kind of beard is usually identified with Wahhabis. In Shi'a fiqh, it may be permissible to shave (I'm not aware of its recommendation) but as said before, I have never witnessed any Shia scholar or layperson keeping a beard without mustache - for it to be specifically identified with Shi'as.

What I was asking you to post was the hadith which you said that the Imams [a] used to trim their mustaches to the roots (by the way, I did say trimming is recommended not only of the mustache but also of the beard).

Anyhow, I suppose we can respectfully agree to disagree.
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Wahhabis: Do they commonly shave their moustaches?

Postby abuali » 12 Sep 2009, 07:00

Sphynx wrote:Perhaps, Tanzania has yet to witness the intense Wahhabi propaganda and tabligh like it is done in other parts of the world. ;) I have a friend in Kenya, I can confirm this trend with her as she usually discusses about the Wahhabi influence spreading in Africa.


I will let ustaz hussein (or anyone else with first hand knowledge on the issue) comment on this. From what I have heard from people involved in Tabligh here, it is VERY intense.

Sphynx wrote:As for the article, I'm sorry, I don't see your point. You've just picked on one article (which we know is biased), overlooking the others, and bring up irrelevant points.


I was replying to your post below in which I assumed (my bad, apologies if you were not defending it) you were defending the article as being non-biased.

Sphynx wrote:
I'd believe it is talking about the veil which covers the women in entirety. Like the one, which was forced by Taliban in Afghanistan.


Since you've agreed the article is biased we can now leave it behind us.

Most of the other articles I have not read after having a quick look at their sources. There is a lot of information out there, most of which falls into the 'little knowledge' category.

I think your argument would carry more value if you could provide shia ulema or alim sources which we can all trust and believe in. If your claim that the shaving of the mustache is usually identified with wahabis is true, I think before you and I, our ulemas would have pointed it out and forewarned us about it.

Sphynx wrote:As for makruh or haraam, the discussion was never about fiqhi rulings, rather that such a kind of beard is usually identified with Wahhabis. In Shi'a fiqh, it may be permissible to shave (I'm not aware of its recommendation) but as said before, I have never witnessed any Shia scholar or layperson keeping a beard without mustache - for it to be specifically identified with Shi'as.


As we both appreciate, Islam is a way of life. The proof of this is the fact that the sunna of the Holy Prophet and Aimmah (as) provide elaborate details of how to conduct ones life. This includes trimming and shaving. Hence it is an issue of jurisprudence. Besides if the act becomes increasingly identified with wahabis, jurisprudence wise, the ulema may issue a verdict of non-recommendation so as to not identify ourselves with the wahabis.

Besides, I never said wahabis dont shave their mustaches. What I said was it was dangerous to stereotype (i.e. call everyone who doesnt sport a mustache a wahabi).

I agree, its definitely not identified with shias. But this is also due to cultural reasons as a i explained before. (i.e. shias live in cultures that pride themselves in having a mustache). Like you mentioned, this does not point towards shaving mustache being discouraged or non-permissible (in other words not everyone who shaves his mustache is a wahabi).

Sphynx wrote:What I was asking you to post was the hadith which you said that the Imams [a] used to trim their mustaches to the roots (by the way, I did say trimming is recommended not only of the mustache but also of the beard).

Yes, I had read it some time ago. Will need some time to look it up and post it with references inshallah.

Sphynx wrote:Anyhow, I suppose we can respectfully agree to disagree.


:D Discussion is always fruitful. I have already learned so much because of this discussion. (jazakallah)

Return to “Inter-religious Dialogue”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests