Questions in Islam and Christianity

Dialogues, discussion and debates between other faiths and sects.
Fatimah Zahra Karim
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Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 02 Sep 2007, 22:48

Here's the proof you asked for.
http://atheism.about.com/library/chrono ... on_ot2.htm

The site mentions that it was between 250 and 100 BC that the old testament was translated from Hebrew to Greek. It lists the dead sea scrolls as the oldest surviving Hebrew scriptures, written between 100 BC and 100 AD. Since we know that the old testament was written before the dead sea scrolls, it stands to reason that the original Hebrew version of the old testament does not exist.
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Postby Esm'ail » 04 Sep 2007, 02:04

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
Why are there contradictions in some shiite hadiths?

Example:
1.
13. Abu ‘Abdullah (‘a) said, “It is as if I were looking at al-Qà’im (‘a) outside of Najaf mounted on a horse… When he raises the flag of the Apostle of Allah (‘s) thirteen thousand and thirteen angels come down to him each of whom looks to him, and they are those who were with Noah on the ark, and they were with Abraham when he was cast into the fire, and they were with Jesus at his ascension....

(Bihàr, 19, 305, 47)

Contradicting,

10. It is reported that Abu ‘Abdullah (‘a) said, “Nine thousand three hundred thirteen angels will descend to the Qà’im, and they are the ones who were with Jesus when Allah raised him to Himself.”

(Bihàr, 14, 339, 15)



Another one,

2.It is reported that Abu Basír said, “I asked Abu Ja‘far (‘a) about ‘Imràn, whether he was a prophet. He said, ‘Yes. He was a prophet and an apostle to his people. And Hannah, the wife of ‘Imràn and Hanànah, the wife of Zachariah were sisters. Mary was born to ‘Imràn from Hannah, and Johnu was born to Zachariah from Hananah. Mary gave birth to Jesus (‘a) and Jesus (‘a) was the son of the daughter of John’s aunt. Johnu was the son of the aunt of Mary. And the aunt of one’s mother is like one’s aunt.”

(Bihàr, 14, 202, 14)

Contradicting,

. It is reported that Ya‘qub ibn Ja‘far ibn Ibràhím said, “I was close to Abu al-Hasan Musàu when a Christian came to him. We were at ‘Uraid. The Christian said to him, ‘I came to you from a far land and have had a difficult journey. I have been asking my Lord for thirty years to guide me to the best religion and the best servants and the most knowledgeable of them. In a dream someone came to me and described a man for me who was in the upper regions of Damascus. I went until I reached him. Then I spoke with him. He said, “I am the most knowledgeable among the people of my religion, but there is one who is more knowledgeable than I.”



I said, “Guide me to the one who is more knowledgeable than you. I do not care how long the journey; a long distance is not too far for me. I have read the Gospels, all of them, the Psalms of David, and I have read four books of the Torah, and I have read the Qur’an outwardly, until I learned all of it.”



Then the scholar said to me, “If you want to study about Christianity, I am the most knowledgeable person among the Arabs and non-Arabs. If you want to study about Judaism, BàTí ibn Shurahbíl al-Sàmirí is the most knowledgable of men today. If you want knowledge of Islam, knowledge of the Torah and knowledge of the Gospel and the Psalms, and the book of Hud, and all of what has been sent down to every prophet in your time and the times of others… I will guide you to him, so go to him, even if you have to walk...”



Abu Ibràhím [Imam Musà Kàzim] said to him, “I will inform you of something that only a few people know who have read the books. Tell me what is the name of the mother of Mary, and the day on which Mary was breathed into, and what hour of the day, and on what day Mary gave birth to Jesus (‘a) and what hour of the day?” The Christian said, “I do not know.”



Abu Ibràhím said, “As for the mother of Mary, her name was Mirtha, in Arabic, Wahibah (gift). As for the day on which Mary conceived, it was Friday at noon, and that was the day that the Ruh al-Amín (the trustworthy spirit) came down, and there is no festival better than this for Muslims. Allah, the Blessed and Almighty, magnified it, and Muhammad (‘s) magnified it and He ordered that it should be a holiday, and it was Friday. As for the day on which Mary was born, it was Tuesday, at four thirty in the afternoon. And do you know what was the river beside which Mary gave birth to Jesus (‘a)?” He said, “No.” He said, “It was the Euphrates, and beside it were date palms and grape vines. There is nothing like the grapes and date palms near the Euphrates…”

(Kàfí, 1, 478, 4)

Another contradiction,

3.It is reported that Abu ‘Abd Allah (‘a) said, “Verily, Mary bore Jesus for nine hours, each hour of which was a month.”

(Kàfí 8, 332, 516).

Contradicting,

Abu Muhammad al-Hasan ibn-‘Alí al-Thàní (the second) said, “Al-Husayn was born in al-Madinah Tuesday, five days before Jamàdí al-’Ulà, three years after al-Hijrah. His mother became pregnant with al-Husayn fifteen nights after his birthday and she was pregnant during six months and then she bore him. And no baby was born in six months exept him and Jesus the son of Mary.

(Dalà’il al-Imàma, 71)

Another one,

4.18. Abu Ja‘far (‘a) said, “Verily, Jesus (‘a) invited his companions [to come] the night when Allah would raise him to Himself. So, they were gathered before him at evening, and they were twelve men. He brought them into a house, then he came out to them from a fountain in a corner of the house while the water was flowing from his head, and he said, ‘Verily, Allah revealed to me that He will raise me to Him now, and He will free me from the Jews. Which of you will bear my semblance, then be killed and crucified and be with me at my level?’ A youth among them said, ‘I, O Spirit of Allah!’ He said, ‘So, you are he.’ Then Jesus said to them, ‘Beware! Among you there is one who will disbelieve in me before twelve men become disbelievers.’ A man among them said, ‘I am he. O prophet of Allah!’ Jesus said to him, ‘If you feel it in yourself, you are he.’ Then Jesus (‘a) said to them, ‘Beware! After me you will divide into three sects. Two sects will blaspheme Allah and they will be in the Fire, and one sect will follow Sham‘un, be true to Allah, and they will be in the Garden. Then Allah raised Jesus from the corner of the house, while they were looking at him.” Then Abu Ja‘far u continued, “Verily, the Jews came seeking Jesus that night, and took the man about whom Jesus (‘a) had said that he would disbelieve in him before twelve men became disbelievers. And they took the youth upon whom the semblance of Jesus had been cast. Then he was killed and crucified. And the one about whom Jesus (‘a) had said that he would disbelieve in him before twelve men became disbelievers disbelieved.”

(Bihàr 14, 336, 6)

Contradicting,
It is related in the tafsír attributed to Imam Hasan ‘Askarí that regarding the verse, and We strengthened him with the holy spirit (2:87) he said, “He is Gabriel, and this was when Allah raised him through a hole in his house to heaven, and He cast his likeness on the one who had desired to kill him, so he was killed instead of him.”

(Bihàr, 14, 338, 10)

Plse explain this. :)
Fatimah Zahra Karim
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Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 04 Sep 2007, 07:09

I cannot explain them. The only explanation available is one I've already given. Only the Qur'an is free from error. There are many ahadith that have been forged, mis-related or mistranslated. There are several steps in determining the authenticity of ahadith, the first of which is comparison with the Qur'an. Since the ahadith you quoted do not have any reference in the Qur'an, other methods are to be followed. If you want to kno, ask, and I'll tell you what they are.

The author of the book you are quoting from, "Jesus (pbuh) in Shi'ite Narrations", states in the foreword
It is generally admitted that not everything reported in this literature is correct, and the science of hadith has been developed by Muslim scholars precisely for the purpose of sorting through the narrations and evaluating their strength. No attempt has been made in what follows to select only hadiths considered reliable. The narrations selected provide an overview of what various reporters of hadiths have claimed that the Imams have said about Jesus (‘a).
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Postby Esm'ail » 04 Sep 2007, 14:28

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,

Thanx sister Karim for the good but unsatisfying response :P . But if I may ask, what are the other methods of sorting the hadiths of our beloved Prophet(SAW) and our Holy Imams(A.S)?

And why do Muslim scholars quote hadiths or relate hadiths to the Prophet(SAW), which he himself never mentioned or his progeny for that matter?
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Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 04 Sep 2007, 15:10

Esmail, concerning your first 'contradiction'
1. thirteen thousand and thirteen angels
2. Nine thousand three hundred thirteen angels

the second tradition mentions 9313, however it does not say only 9313.
If I have 10 apples, then I do have 5 dont I? :wink:

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Fatimah Zahra Karim
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Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 07 Sep 2007, 00:17

The ahadith are first checked for consistency with the Qur'an. If they do not contradict the Qur'an, the other steps are carried out. If you've ever gone through a book of ahadith, you'll have noticed that before the actual hadith, there is a chain of narrators. It goes something like A son of B, heard from C son of D, who heard from the prophet....There are books many years old, which mention the narrators and their religious status. Also there is a list of the person's characteristics. eg. Whether they were truthful, had good memories, were munafiqs, etc. Ahadith are accepted only from narrators who had no ulterior motives, had good memories and were reliable. Even if one narrator in the whole chain is unreliable, the whole hadith may be discarded as maybe forged.

The chain of narrators is also examined and the hadith is accpeted only if the chain is unbroken. For example, if a person living 200 years after the prophet (saw) says "the prophet said...", we discard that, since we dont know where he heard it from.

If a hadith, like the hadith of ghadeer, is narrated by many different chains of narrators who had no contact with each other, we examine the chain, and if it is found to be complete, we call the hadith authentic.

These are the steps I am aware of. I think there are others which I haven't mentioned. Maybe you can find out on your own. Or someone else might tell us.

As for why people forge hadith, the answer's simple. Because they want to obtain status, because they want to legalize actions which were illegal...many reasons, mostly of which corrupt the religion.
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Postby Esm'ail » 07 Sep 2007, 01:48

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
Thanx sister Karim. Now I will try finding others by myself.
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Postby Esm'ail » 07 Sep 2007, 01:52

In christianity try reading Gospel of John 20:17
Fatimah Zahra Karim
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Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 07 Sep 2007, 08:36

I've read it before. I know. "...my father and your father, my God and Your God". I noticed something else, too. Isn't it interesting that Jesus (as) asks Mary Magdalene not to touch him, but when he appears to his disciples he himself asks them to touch him and see that he is not spirit but flesh? Could this be because he was still observing hijab?(since he was still alive, the laws still applied)
If Allah assists you, there is none that can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, then who is there that can assist you after Him? And on Allah should the believers rely (Qur'an 3:160)
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Postby Esm'ail » 08 Sep 2007, 02:52

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
What do you mean Prophet Jesus Christ(pbuh) was observing hijab?
All I know hijab is for women right!! :)
Glad u read the verse.
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Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 09 Sep 2007, 01:34

There's hijab for both, men and women. (Don't tell me you don't know)

I was talking about the 'no touching a na-mahram' part of hijab.
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Postby Esm'ail » 09 Sep 2007, 12:28

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
Ok now I understand.
:)
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Re: Questions in Islam and Christianity

Postby abuali » 21 Aug 2011, 23:21

(bismillah)
(salam)

This was a very enlightening discussion.

Esmail, did you then find out about the methods used to sieve ahadith for their authenticity?
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Re: Questions in Islam and Christianity

Postby Ustaz Hussein » 09 Nov 2011, 12:53

Salaam.
Shaikh Dr. Bilal Phillips (though a wahhabi but we must benefit from his knowledge) cited that the Bible is totaly against science. He said that in the first chapter of Genesis it is written that:
-On the first day, the day and night were created and there was evening and there was morning.
-On the third day, the earth was created, the dry land
-On the fourth day, the sun and moon were created: The lesser light to rule the day and the greater light to rule the night, he called them sun and moon.
Fatimah Zahra Karim
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Re: Questions in Islam and Christianity

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 11 Nov 2011, 14:50

I don't get what you're trying to say. The qur'an also says that the universe was created in 6 days/periods of time...
If Allah assists you, there is none that can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, then who is there that can assist you after Him? And on Allah should the believers rely (Qur'an 3:160)

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