Why ladies cant do Julus

The sad first month of the Islamic calendar during which the family of the Holy Prophet were faced with a great ordeal and tragedy.
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Why ladies cant do Julus

Postby Tayyaba » 17 Jan 2005, 23:37

salaamz...
i have been wonderin why we ladies cant do julus around the world ladies do it why not here?
:(
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Postby abuali » 17 Jan 2005, 23:46

Alaykum Salaam

Very good question...

After all there is no restriction for ladies to organize peaceful juloos or protests for that matter as long as hijab is observed.

Has it ever been tried here in Dar?
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Postby Moti » 18 Jan 2005, 02:06

salaams

there is no reason why the ladies can not do julus

we do hve a bilal julos in which we have woman particcipating as well
once a year
not sure of the dates

and you can send the idea to the jullos comite

we in our comunity need hard comunity work for the ladies as well
and a strong commite due to the large number of participants expcted

we shud there for get youths come up
n say no
we want julos
but unfortunately we jjus hve our sisters asking
and no one saying
no we must hve it

we can see around the world as u said
we hve sisters hveing julos
and so can our comunity

and as brother hasin said
hijab is very important
the problem might as well be
the hijab of our youth sisters

but if we hve youth sisters come up and say we want it
it must happen
and we had some youth brothers come up last year
sayin we want this in the julos
at first they were dined their right
but then tehy fought for it
and alhmd it was granted

hope to c a sisters julos in dar very soon
hopefuly this year
coz its never late

where there is a will
there is a way
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Postby Hussaini » 18 Jan 2005, 13:02

Moderator; why not move this to Muharram forum.

Indeed this is a great idea, before we look into allowing ladies participation into juloos there are a few things we need to take care of:

1. Ladies participant, are they going to come out in almost the same number as gents, after all, it no point having ladies juloos and only few turn up. This will be an embarrasment

2. Are ladies going to come in PROPER Hijab , unlike the hijab we see our sisters do in our mosque ??? whoi is going to tell ladies withour proper Hijab not to particiapte , if a lady without hijab comes, are you going to refuese him particpate in the juloos

3. This is a suggestion, It is time our juloos timimg should change so as to get our message to more people, whay do oyu guys think, I think of 5 in the evening so that we all are done with majlis by 10 or 11 PM on ashoora night.

I am still waiting for my replies and suggestion to my topic I posted in muharram section regarding how to spread the messsage of Imam
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Postby abuali » 18 Jan 2005, 13:21

Moderator; why not move this to Muharram forum.


Good idea...am moving it now...
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Postby Tayyaba » 18 Jan 2005, 14:12

Hussaini well wat u have asked
1. there r many ladies who do want to do julus...so i bet there will be many ladies..
2. yeah bout hijab thjing it should be strict that no one is not allowed to come without hijab
3.and yeah bout julus timin it is better to start earlier

hope the julus committie takes this into consideration.... :?
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Postby Sayyeda » 18 Jan 2005, 15:01

Well whatever has been discussed is pretty true. I think the main reason for not having Juloos for Ladies is because of their Hijab. Frankly speaking, Juloos is a commemoration of what happened in Kerbala and it brings unity amongst us. Therefore, Hijab should be maintained.

Anyway, We can bring the matter forward to the Community and see if they can do anything about it. As Tayyaba said, I'm sure there are many ladies who would want to participate!

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Postby Hussaini » 18 Jan 2005, 21:05

personally I am in favor of Ladies participation BUT the problem is HIJAB, are we ready to refuse ladies without hijab from participating in juloos. Will the ladies be BOLD enough to send back th ladies who turn up without proper hijab. This is a key question, if this can be assured than I do not think there should be a problem for ladies participation..

Well, it should not be that we have few ladies turn up and eventually attend the juloos with improper hijab and end up sending out the wrong image.
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julus

Postby Sajida » 18 Jan 2005, 21:21

Salaams,
It's a very nice idea to keep julus for ladies..n yes the ladies can be bold enuf to send off the ladies with improper hijab..n as for the number of ladies interested..we should make announce it officially once the jamat permits to it..n then we see how many r interested so that things can be planned accordingly..but this has to be done pretty fast if we want it this muharram..
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julus

Postby Sajida » 18 Jan 2005, 21:23

sorry for the typing error..i meant make an announcement at the mosque once we r permitted
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Postby abuali » 19 Jan 2005, 23:56

Salaams everyone...

I would indeed be very pleased if we can pull this off...if we can manage to start a good, well organized, purposeful ladies juloos...Ask! would have certainly made a difference.

There are two tasks at hand that I see blocking the way: -

1. The traditions and custom of the community and the fact that a ladies juloos has never organized before

2. The organization and discipline of the participants, and their turnout.

Although both these obstaces can be overcome, they will have to be undertaken with caution.

Sometimes the traditions develop due to necessity and the environment. A ladies juloos has never been organized before probably because of: -

1. Lack of a responsible committee of ladies who agree to undertake the organize the ladies juloos (just like the juloos committee of the gents)

2. Lack of an adequate plan of action. This includes answers to questions such as:-
a. Will the ladies juloos take place simultaneously with the gents one or not?
b. Which route will the ladies take?
c. How will the ladies deal with non-compliance of hijab and most definitely the issue of make-up?
d. Is there a definite goal that is clear to all the participants?

I am personally totally up for it and will support it as long as it is serving the purpose of getting the message of Imam Hussain out there.

And I am quite optimistic as well; I have seen the Bilal juloos...in which both gents and ladies participate, and judging by the numbers, the ladies turnout was greater than the gents turnout...and it was very well organized and went wmoothly without a hitch. (the bilal juloos takes place during the day and takes a much longer route)

Whenever there is a change to be made, it is members of that particular group that can actually make it happen. In this case its the ladies themselves.

The wise approach would be to gather together as many ladies as possible, who are of the same opinion, especially elder ladies who have significant influence in the ladies section. IF a group of ladies, consisting of elders in power and youths can be made up, who can discuss among themselves the logistics (the what, why, where, when and how), and then approach the jamaat for permission, I am sure the jamaat will have little choice but to give permission.

I also feel, very strongly, that we could have a much wide spread effect of the juloos, if we also organize it during the day...infact I would say, organize it at the height of the day...10am, or 11am....

I mean, since when have protests started to be organized at night when most people (the ones we target to spread the word of Imam Hussain ) are asleep. I mean, the juloos is organized so as to inform people of the great tragedy and revolution of Kerbala isn't it? Then why do it at such an awkward time?

If we can get enough support for this as well...we cna push this further ...
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Postby shabbirh » 20 Jan 2005, 15:29

In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

It would indeed be a major break-through if the Khoja community "elders" could be convinced to "allow" our sisters to participate in the march commemorating the martyrdom of al-Husayn(A), his family and companions.

However, since the entire act of commemorating Ashura is in fact Mustahab and not Wajib, this lobbying, should be coupled with lobbying for another much needed facility.

The facility for our sisters to attend the daily Jamaat prayers alongside the men - including (but definately not limited to) Friday Prayers.

It would be interesting to see if people are interested in lobbying for this as much as they are in lobbying for "permission to be granted for our sisters to join the julus".

It is well known that part - a significant part - of the entire Kerbala Epic - was the establishment of prayer, and the maintaining of Allah's name as the Most High, it is therefore, totally in sync with lobbying for the julus, to insist that the congregational prayers and Friday Prayer become events in which our sisters can partake. Naturally, it should also be noted that sufficient precautions should be undertaken to prevent such events becomming meeting and "eyeing up" grounds for the more corrupt of our community (I'm sure everyone is fully aware of what I say).

I appologise if I come across as cynical, but knowing this community, and especially it's elders, some of the "administration" are so far removed from what the true Islam of Muhammad(S) is, and so embroiled in their Minduism (Cultural Islam/ Pacified Islam/ Secularised Islam) that they actually believe it is bad for our sisters to be involved in these kind of events.

More importantly and tragically, the resident mullahs are unable(?) or unwilling(?) to address these problems, and choose instead to simply lead the prayers, perform the odd nikah, and talaq, give some advise, dish out inane masalah about various forms of Taharah and Ghusl, and job done, they are a good resident "Mullah".

Should anyone (let a lone the resident Mullah) speak out about real problems in the community - such as the 20% rate of HIV infections amongst the Asian Community in Dar es-Salaam, the rate of increase in marital abuse and voilence, the increase in the number of failed marriages (out of 12 marriages performed a year ago on a large khushiali, only 4 have survived - that is a serious problem), the exponential increase of marital infidelity, gambling related vices, alcohol and narcotic consumption and abuse, rises in incestuous relationships, extra marital affairs - leading to divorse or partner swapping scenarios, contributions and assistance given for sexual services, etc, then that person is ostrasized by the community, and barred from speaking at any "Khoja" Center, he/she is regarded as some sort of pariah, because the Khoja Community is "perfect" and has "no problems".

It is this problem of putting our heads in the proverbial sand that are more serious, and while it is commendable that my respected brothers and sisters are making a stand on the Julus issue, it would be somewhat more in sync with the actual message of Imam al-Husayn(A), that we make a stand - and attempt to combat and curtail the plethora of vices that are consuming our community like a cancer that spreads unabated.

If nothing is done, then the only thing that will be Islamic about our Community will be first names that people have - some argue that this is already the case. However, I should point out that I beg to differ, I believe there is still hope.

Some might think that Shabbir is "exagerating" the problems and "making this up", or getting carried away, eh, think what you want, it matters not, however, one thing that should be understood is that these problems exist, whether they are accepted or not is secondary. We might even know individually people afflicted by these social vices, and we might even cover for them. We should realise that these illnesses will destroy our future generations. Our generation might survive the onslaught of these vices, however what certainty is there that the next generation or the one after that will continue on the straight path?

The problem HAS to be addressed - especially in light of the commemoration of the martyrdom of Aba Abdillah al-Husayn(A), the imprisonment of the women, and the subsequant attrocities committed en-route to Kufa and Damascus and indeed in Damascus by the Yazid, his armies and associates.

Comments would be appreciated.

On a slightly off note; those who visit http://www.islamicdigest.net/ regularly will have noted that for about a week it has been down, this is nothing to be alarmed about, it is simply that our hosting provider's datacenter was being moved from one place to another and some downtime was expected. The site has now been moved successfully, and we are awaiting DNS propogation, insha Allah, the site will be up and running as per normal in the next 24-48 (max) hours. Basically, if you can see the image in my signature, then the site is up and running again :)

Edit:
I had forgotten to ask the people who are suggesting that "badly hijabed sisters should be confronted" (or words to the effect of), on what basis is one's hijab declared as bad?

Also, is not a julus a method of propogation of Islam? If people are pushed away because their "Hijab is percieved as bad", then what manner of tabligh is being performed? Instead, it would be more prudent to set an example and be gentle with said "offenders", and to advise them through action rather than confrontation.

Also, every time I have attended the julus as it stands (the one for men), I have noticed many people of other faiths walking along side, and being a party to the procession, what message would it send to them if people were being kicked out of the julus for observing what might appear in the eyes of some over-zealous individuals as "bad hijab"?

Also, the Julus should not just be a mindless procession, there should be pertinent slogans in English and more importantly Swahili, along with banners and plackards explaining the message of Imam Husayn(A), not ONLY from a historical perspective, but from a contemporary perspective, and linking in the struggle of our beloved brethren in Occupied Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Chechnya, Kashmir, etc.

There should be clear parallels drawn between Yazeed and his allies at that time, and the Amerikkkan Empire and it's Dajjalikkk tendencies in todays age, this is extremely important. If it is merely an occasion for the guys to eye up the gals, for suggestive glances across a crowd, and other such immature activities then frankly such a julus should be condemned, however, if it works in the right manner then it should be supported.

To those who wish to "be firm" agaisnt those who observe "bad hijab", I would say, be firm against those who mimick the actions of the Yazidite forces and who are the true enemies of Islam, and be tolerant of your believing brother and sister - correct their mistakes with love and compassion. Remember, it might also be YOU who is mistaken in some arena, and as Isa(A) the son of Maryam(A) has taught:

"Do as thou would be done"
(Treat others in a manner which you expect them to treat you).

This message is an eteranl message and echoes through the ages.

We should remember that Imam Husayn(A)'s message was no different to the message given by our beloved Prophet(S), Muhammad ibn Abdillah(S):

Image

We should also remember that we are followers - or at the very least attempting to be followers - of Imam al-Hujjah(AJ), and we should act with the dignity that such a follower should have.

It is crucial to remember this, and think about all our actions, past and present, and reflect on whether we are truely with al-Hujjah(A) or are subconciously partnering with the Dajjalikkk Forces.

A powerful argument that can be presented to those who oppose the establishment of socio-political activities by our sisters - such as the daily prayers in congregation, the Friday prayer, processions against injustice and in support of the oppressed - such as the Julus to commemorate Ashura are presented in the images below:

Image

Image

(I appologise for the length of this post, however, as my respected brothers and sisters will come to realise, I tend to be quite verbose in my communications - please bear with them.)

With Salaams and Dua's

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Postby abuali » 29 Jan 2005, 10:53

Salaam All.

Has the lobbying for ladies juloos gone any further? Has any progress been made yet?

Shabbirh, I agree that the ladies can also lobby for attending jamaat prayers (according to my understanding, attending jamaat prayers is also a Mustahab act like commemoration of the martydom) - Ofcourse Prayers are wajib...and Inshallah everyone here does adhere to performing their wajibaat.

As for the issue of Hijab...I personally feel that a Shia woman who attends the juloos, should attend in proper hijab. If she does not want to put on Hijab, then its better for her not to come. After all, the most tragic incident of Kerbala is the chaadar being taken away from the women.

Ofcourse, if a woman from another community wants to join in the procession, she can do so without any restrictions. But allowing shia women to join in the procession without hijab, I would feel would be hypocrisy to the message of Bibi Zainab.

[please note, I am talking of women who come without Hijab...I am in no position to define good hijab from bad hijab except that Hijab should adhere to the bare minimum that has been laid out]

As far as Shia women are concerned, they are already Muslim, and hence i dont think the following applies to them.

Also, is not a julus a method of propogation of Islam? If people are pushed away because their "Hijab is percieved as bad", then what manner of tabligh is being performed?


I agree that the above would apply to non muslim (or rather non-shia) women who may want to join in...and they should be allowed to do so.

I definitely agree with shabbirh on the purposeful organization of the juloos.

A quick question to the ladies. Has there been any progress in lobbying for this issue....Have you found support from elder ladies of the community?
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Postby shabbirh » 29 Jan 2005, 13:54

In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

Just to pick up on what you've said Br Hasin;

As for the issue of Hijab...I personally feel that a Shia woman who attends the juloos, should attend in proper hijab. If she does not want to put on Hijab, then its better for her not to come. After all, the most tragic incident of Kerbala is the chaadar being taken away from the women.

Ofcourse, if a woman from another community wants to join in the procession, she can do so without any restrictions. But allowing shia women to join in the procession without hijab, I would feel would be hypocrisy to the message of Bibi Zainab.


While I agree with you in principle, there are many of our fellow sisters who as a matter of course don't wear the customary hijab, to suggest they not attend simply because they don't wear the headscarf is unfair in my opinion.

The message of Kerbala, is far greater than just the Hijab, and it is a known fact that everyone is at varying levels of belief and conviction. If a lady for examples doesn't wear the overtly obvious hijab (the headscarf, chaader, etc), but is modest in her mentality and manner, then frankly I would consider her hijab better than someone who overtly wears the headscarf, chaader, but flirts and speaks in inuendo quite openly.

There is a very fine line on this subject, and I feel that ostracizing one in favour of another is invalid and unjust.

This links into what you've said here:

As far as Shia women are concerned, they are already Muslim, and hence i dont think the following applies to them.

Also, is not a julus a method of propogation of Islam? If people are pushed away because their "Hijab is percieved as bad", then what manner of tabligh is being performed?


I agree that the above would apply to non muslim (or rather non-shia) women who may want to join in...and they should be allowed to do so.

Okay, just because someone is Muslim, (shia or sunni aside), and they choose to not wear the overt hijab for one reason or another, it would be incorrect to chastise them immediately and without further investigation of their scenario.

The bottom line is that there are multiple dimensions of Hijab - both for the men and women - and to suggest that because someone isn't observing hijab as per the physical appearance dimension, but is actually observing better hijab in other dimensions such as demeur, mentality, persona, etc as compared to someone who simply wears the headscarf "because mummy and daddy told me to wear it" is at a far lower level, since then there is the fundamental abuse of the Hijab.

A lady, in the headscarf, if seen doing something untoward and openly unIslamic, would send a signal to those seeing said activity that "Muslims" do this - as a result, the damage to Islam on a social level is far worse.

In fact in my personal opinion, a person should rectify their internal hijab before embarking on the physical hijab, as I know of many cases, where women who wear what is considered very "good" hijab, are amongst the most flirtacious and wanton women I know.

It is important to realise this.

No, I feel that everyone should be welcome to said julus, regardless of their level of belief, or even the creed they follow.

Insha Allah everyone understands.

With Salaams and Dua's

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why ladies cant do juloos

Postby Aliyah » 29 Jan 2005, 21:10

S/a

Well i feel that ladies dont deserve to participate in the juloos especially our community ladies. The main reason offcourse is HIJAB. The media and western influence has really spoiled ppl over here together with me.

Allah bless u all
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