Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

The sad first month of the Islamic calendar during which the family of the Holy Prophet were faced with a great ordeal and tragedy.
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Muhammad Mahdi
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 12 Feb 2008, 07:26

People should be cautious of the words and sayings of the speakers and reporters of the event of Ashura and accept only those sayings which are supported with evidence lest we should not be included


Exactly what I have been trying to tell people.
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby smma59 » 16 Feb 2008, 00:31

Dear mohammad i am reading all your replies and allegations on shia azadari practice and historical event of karbala and shaam by taking name of Shaykh Zayd alSalami.
Please let me know who are you and who is Shaykh Zayd alSalami's?
1) Do you have proper knowledge of islam, rulings of islam and learned properly ?
If yes you are welcome and if you do not how can you speak on islamic matters against well known muttahids and scholars?

When we catch fever we immediately decide to consult Doctor of medicine but for islamic matters we allow all the ignorants, neem hakeem to speak and give their expert comments.

Dear readers the simple way to save your selve from such type of misguidance, consult your marja e taqleed and follow his rulings without going here and there and asking, learning from ignorants..

there are some who sold their imaan and now started to defend enemies of ahlulbayt openly . be care full.

This is an insult of janab e zainab when anyone discuss on hijaab and what was with her and what was snatched? why this man mohammad want all in detail? this nothing but a kind of insulting janab e zaynab and an act of defending yazeed laeen.

I am writing here some part of masaeb from well known books and Those who have conman sense will never ask about hijaab.....
The rude and roguish Umayyads set fire to the tents of Imām al-Husayn, peace be on him, paying no attention to the Prophet’s womenfolk and children who were in them. They carried firebrands in their hands and cried out: “Set fire to the houses of the oppressors!”

These people thought that the tents of al-Husayn were the houses of oppression while the houses of the Umayyads and of their agents were the houses of justice. They forgot that the Umayyads had drowned the Muslim countries in oppression and tyranny.

When they set the tents to fire, the women of Allah’s Apostle, may Allah bless him and his family, escaped to the desert while the fire was following them. As for the orphans, they cried and ran away towards the desert asking the people for help, but nobody helped or aided them. That was the most tragic sight which Imām Zayn al-‘Ābidin saw. He did not forget it throughout his lifetime. After the martyrdom of his father, he always said: “By Allah, when I look at my aunts and my sisters, tears choke me because I remember the day of al-Taff when they escaped from tent to tent and the caller of the people was calling: ‘Set fire to the houses of the oppressors!

Ibid., p. 3.
From Books Zayn al ‘Abidin, by Bāqir Sharif al-Qarashi
The police men of Yazid tied with ropes the wise women of Revelation and the children of Imām al-Husayn, as sheep are tied. The beginning of the rope was around the neck of Imām Zayn al-‘Ābidin, then around the neck of his aunt Zaynab, up to all the daughters of Allah’s Apostle, may Allah bless him and his family. Whenever they relaxed in their walking, they (the police men of Yazid) whipped them. They brought them in this condition whose terror cracked the mountains and made them stop before Yazid. So Imām Zayn al-‘Ābidin turned to him and asked him: “What do you think the reaction of our grandfather, Allah’s Apostle, may Allah bless him and his family, might have been had he seen us looking like this?”
Hayāt al-Imām al-Husayn, vol. 3, p. 371'

How shamefully if you call yourselve shia ne Ali(a.s)....
Please tell me what message you want to give our community or which type of amr bil maroof you are doing by quoting these words "she was not totally left without a veil in Karbala!"...

I understand one thing that indirectly you want to say shia make allegation on yazeed and his soldiers that they snatched hijaab of wise women of Revelation?
why you are so much interested in defending lashkar e yazeed?

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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 16 Feb 2008, 07:07

1) Do you have proper knowledge of islam, rulings of islam and learned properly ?

I believe I have basic knowledge of the rules. And I know, that the sheikh has.

When we catch fever we immediately decide to consult Doctor of medicine but for islamic matters we allow all the ignorants, neem hakeem to speak and give their expert comments.

Well this is hard to believe. It is okay to ask the "mulla chopris" for answers but when an aalim who has studied ten years, comes and tells us things we do not want to hear, we abuse and insult him?

Dear readers the simple way to save your selve from such type of misguidance, consult your marja e taqleed and follow his rulings without going here and there and asking, learning from ignorants.

Are you a mujtahid? I guess not. So dear readers please ignore the above comment by smma as it comes from a non-mujtahid, an ignorant person. Right?

This is an insult of janab e zainab when anyone discuss on hijaab and what was with her and what was snatched? why this man mohammad want all in detail? this nothing but a kind of insulting janab e zaynab and an act of defending yazeed laeen.

Come on. Think for a moment. We have no evidence to show that her hijab was snatched. So how can we lie and say it was snatched?

The masaeb you posted, had no mention of the hijab being snatched.

I understand one thing that indirectly you want to say shia make allegation on yazeed and his soldiers that they snatched hijaab of wise women of Revelation?

No I dont. Yazeed did terrible things and there is no need to defend him. But by our lies, we are defaming the Holy ladies when we say thier hijab were snatched. It is time we stop our emotions and think logically with the evidence we do have.
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby smma59 » 16 Feb 2008, 19:52

Dear muhammad

your reply itself declare you are a misguider. and its reason is only one.....
I said"
Dear readers the simple way to save yourselves from such type of misguidance, consult your marja e taqleed and follow his rulings without going here and there and asking, learning from ignorants."


This is a right way of teaching and every man who is not sane or mad knows it means i am saying "consult your marja"

but just to misguide .you started to make allegation that i am saying i am marja;;

this is sufficient to understand you are an ignorant as My above quoted words are according to Holy Quran Ask Those who know if You do not know

no where we find" ask those who insult sister of imam husain (a.s) and when ever any person ask why you are discussing of hijaab and what enemies snatched or not? they start to speak like fools.

IF YOU ARE YOUR SO CALLED MULLA IS READY TO ANSWER
WHAT IS AIM BEHIND ALL THESE STUDIES"? IS THIUS AMER BIL MAROOF? OR TRYING TO SAVE US FROM ANY HARAM ACT?

IF YOU CANT THEN IT IS CONFIRMED THAT YOU PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO DEFEND YAZEED LAEEN BY SHOWING HE WAS UNISLAMIC AND NEVER ORDERED TO SNATCH HIJAAB OF janab e Zainab.

Shame on you if you say ur selve shia and creating doubts about masaeb e karbala and defending yazeed laeen..
listen lecture of tahirul qadri..a sunni scholar who is giving you proof who snatched hijaab of janabe zainab..
http://www.minhaj.org/?p=2&sp=0&id=351

He also clarifies the distortions and misrepresentations made by supporters of Yazid.
shame .on you that now crossed the limit and started to insult janab e zainab.

I have doubt you are playing with muslims by taking name of Shaykh Zayd also.
if you are honest send me lecture of Shaykh Zayd . I want to see who is this man..?

The best thing is to ask YOUR MARJA E TAQLEED and when you recieve any news, message , first think WHAT IS HIS INTENTION BEHIND MESSAGE?
IF IT IS AMER BIL MAROOF AND TRYING TO SAVE YOU FROM ANY HARAM ACT. FOLLOW IT AND IF ITS IS JUST FOR TIME PAAS BY SO CALLED ENEMIES OF ISLAM AND DEFENDER OF YAZEED LAEEN>>>ASK THEM ABOUT THEIR INTENTION AND BE SURE HE WILL NEVER TELL YOU HIS INTENTION BUT WILL START INSULTING YOU OR WILL START TO SPEAK LIKE BLIND MAN< OR LIKE FOOLS..
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 16 Feb 2008, 20:18

We are trying to defend the Ladies' honour, not to defame her. If you insist on history being a product of the character of Yazid alone, there were lots of other ways of insulting the Ladies, including making them work as slaves. Why not mention those too, while you're at it? It certainly wasn't beyond Yazid's filthy mind. But that would be defaming the Ladies. The Hijab is a similar issue.
Last edited by Fatimah Zahra Karim on 27 Feb 2008, 10:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby smma59 » 16 Feb 2008, 20:34

We are trying to defend the Ladies' honour, not to defame her. If you insist on history being a product of the character of Yazid alone, there were lots of other ways of insulting the Ladies, including making them work as slaves. Why not mention those too, while you're at it? It certainly wasn't beyond Yazid's filthy mind. But that would be defaming the Ladies. The Hijab is a similar issue.


HOW YOU ARE TRYING TO DEFEND JANAB E ZAINAB's HONOUR? AND HOW THOSE SCHOLARS QUOTED MAZALIM ON JANAB E ZAINAB INSULT HER?
PLEASE EXPLAIN SO WE CAN ALSO LEARN>..
YOUR POINT IS GOOD .
WS
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby smma59 » 16 Feb 2008, 21:07

A MESSAGE TO ALL!

Assalamu alaikum wr wb Different opinions about hisorical events should not make us confused. Mo'mineen. We should focus on mourning the tragedy, getting its great aims and teaching ourselves and others the great lessons of self purification and justice. Even if one can prove that a certain incident did not happen in Karbala, we should always have the possibilty of other scholars reaching to a different result, so, we do not make it an issue of dispute, unless it carries an insult to our respected leaders and our high values of Islam.

Wassalamu alaikum
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby abuali » 26 Feb 2008, 10:13

smma59 wrote:A MESSAGE TO ALL!

Assalamu alaikum wr wb Different opinions about hisorical events should not make us confused. Mo'mineen. We should focus on mourning the tragedy, getting its great aims and teaching ourselves and others the great lessons of self purification and justice. Even if one can prove that a certain incident did not happen in Karbala, we should always have the possibilty of other scholars reaching to a different result, so, we do not make it an issue of dispute, unless it carries an insult to our respected leaders and our high values of Islam.

Wassalamu alaikum


Thank you for this post. Although it came late (after you accused everyone who had a different opinion than yours of insulting the Holy ladies and after you disputed over the issue).

Like I have said before, what you will find in common among all the members of Ask is the following two things:

1. Immense love for the Ahl Bayt (a.s)
2. Immense hatred for Yazid (l.a)

Those that you see discussing the issue of hijab and poems feel that saying the holy ladies were bareheaded and some words of certain poems constitute an insult to them. And hence, the reason for the discussion.

A reminder to readers

About the Hijab Of Bibi Zaynab (as) is being discussed on viewtopic.php?f=45&t=2183&p=12040#p12040

This forum is with regards to poems, marsiyas and nawhas.
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby SyedBaqir » 02 Mar 2008, 16:57

With regards to Marsia, Poems and Nauhas, NO ONE, atleast no true shia relies on them ONLY for history.

Even when we are present when nauhas/marsias are being recited, we certainly do not put them in the same category of authenticity as the majlis that is recited between them.

There are many nauhas that do not even qualify as such [although I am not going to take the liberty and mention them here] and therefore, I agree that they should be discouraged. But before we go to screen nauhas, let us first start by screening sources that are relied upon as authentic.

There is no logic in us arguing over whether a certian nauha is right or wrong and leave aside books which claim water existed in kerbala to flourish.
Everybody knows that nauhas are nauhas (lamentations) but not everyone can discern whether all books by shia writers are authentic.

Moreever, a few such nauhas definetly should not be taken as a representative of all nauhas.

If the roots of our religious knowledge are proper, the branches will blossom. Otherwise we can continue arguing over petty issues, while the disbelivers continue to tarnish our good image.
Imam Ali (as) said: "Do not talk about knowledge with the foolish so that they deny you, nor with the ignorant so that they find you oppressive, but talk about it with those of its people whom you meet who will accept it and understand it.".
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby abuali » 02 Mar 2008, 20:50

Syedbaqir, perhaps you have misunderstood the point of discussion

Yes, we shias understand nawhas are nawhas, meant to incite emotion and not a source of history.

The point that is being discussed is should we be discouraging practices that hand-over ammunition to anti-shia and anti-islamic propoganda?

Please read Ayatullah Lankarani's message that I had provided earlier to understand what I am trying to say
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby abuali » 02 Mar 2008, 20:54

SyedBaqir wrote: and leave aside books which claim water existed in kerbala to flourish.


As you will be aware, and so is the Muslim and Non muslim world, there are massive differences in acceptance of authentic history between muslims.

You must also be aware about the process that the Jafari School of thought uses in determining strength or weakness of a hadith.

I suggest you go through that process before claiming a hadith is strong or weak.

You will also agree that a book of collection of hadeeth cannot be labelled authentic or inauthentic in its entirety because one or a few hadith in it are not authentic (or not to our liking).

If you disagree with my above statement then please indicate so that I can provide references and proof for what I have said.
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby SyedBaqir » 04 Mar 2008, 20:28

hasin wrote:Syedbaqir, perhaps you have misunderstood the point of discussion

Yes, we shias understand nawhas are nawhas, meant to incite emotion and not a source of history.


Thank you for clarifying. For a short while I was under the impression that some members have been led astray by listening to these nauhas and have now decided to study it in detail to determine its authenticity.

I also agree with the Brother that some nauhas are not really worth the effort. And they might appear to lower the status of our aimma, but I believe that Allah (swt) has exalted them to such a position that even if all shias decide to join hands with the infidels, we will not be able to degrade them by even a percent. However, the least we can do is to avoid them .

More funny is the fact that some nauhas are good enough to be qasidas/naat/duas/motivational speeches; but we still keep on doing matam on them. I am sure you all know examples of such nauhas and therefore I am not mentioning them here.

I suggest this being brought to the notice of concerned authorities who will be in a better position to control recitation of such nauhas.
Imam Ali (as) said: "Do not talk about knowledge with the foolish so that they deny you, nor with the ignorant so that they find you oppressive, but talk about it with those of its people whom you meet who will accept it and understand it.".
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby SyedBaqir » 04 Mar 2008, 20:57

hasin wrote:
SyedBaqir wrote: and leave aside books which claim water existed in kerbala to flourish.


As you will be aware, and so is the Muslim and Non muslim world, there are massive differences in acceptance of authentic history between muslims.

You must also be aware about the process that the Jafari School of thought uses in determining strength or weakness of a hadith.

I suggest you go through that process before claiming a hadith is strong or weak.


I very much agree with what you say. However, differences between shia sources itself are not very many. Yes, between shia's and sunni's there could be massive.

Our school of thought uses the best method of determining authenticity, and therefore, once a hadith is accepted as authentic I see no reason for anyone to question it.

I am definitely not a person of enough caliber to even think of claiming a hadith to be strong or weak. But yes, we all are smart enough to quote books by great Ulama in which they claim a hadith to be weak.

You will also agree that a book of collection of hadeeth cannot be labelled authentic or inauthentic in its entirety because one or a few hadith in it are not authentic (or not to our liking).


True. But as you said above, we should take all neccessary precaution and
discouraging practices that hand-over ammunition to anti-shia and anti-islamic propoganda?
.

Suppose someone starts quoting that great scholar and uses that point against us? We already have the infidels saying that it was the shias who called Imam Hussein (as) to Kufa and it was they who killed him.
If that was not sufficient, one apparently great lecturer writes a book stating that the Holy Prophet (saww) never clearly said that Imam Ali (as) was the first Imam. He even went on to deny some concept concerning the 12th Imam. Luckily for us, Ayatullah Sistani banned the mimbar for him. [but some leaders have taken no heed and still allow him to give lecture].

It is very good that you have brought to our attention the implication of what I said. I am not against the whole book or the scholar in his entirety; Rather I suport the great ulama who have expressed their displeasure over him raising such baseless issues in his book.

PS: If we want to discuss the water issue, we can start a new thread. I think we have understood the message of the person starting this thread with regards to some nauhas.
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