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The sad first month of the Islamic calendar during which the family of the Holy Prophet were faced with a great ordeal and tragedy.
#11924
smma59 wrote:
ARE YOU SURE THAT FATWA IS GIVEN ON BY Shaykh Zayd Salami, in his Friday khutba of 4th Janary 2008,?
Brother, who told you that Shayk Salami had issued a fatwa? Kindly read properly before reaching conclusions.
smma59 wrote: YOU PEOPLE OPENLY DEFENDING YAZEEDI LASHKAR.
Which people are defending Yazeed (l.a)? Do you realise that you have put allegations/tohmat on members of Ask whom you dont even know let alone have any idea of their faith?

Did you ever stop to think that the reason for this discussion is to follow the footsteps of our Aimmah?

Did it ever cross your mind that those who are maintaining that the holy bibi had her wajib hijab are actually doing so in the love of ahl bayt because they cant bear to think their Bibi was without the wajib hijab?

Just like those who say that it was not beyond yazidi lashkar to even rob the holy ladies of their wajib hijab, are doing so because of their hatred of yazidi lashkar

Dont you realise that whats common in this discussion is that all members are united by the love of ahl bayt (a.s) and the hatred of yazid (l.a)
#11925
smma59 wrote: trying to stop complete azadari.....
Can you please quote anyone in this forum who has spoken against azadari?

You have to understand that zanjeer is one form of azadari practiced by a minority. It cannot be defined as the totality of azadari.

We are all azadars of Imam Hussain (AS) and the majority choose to mourn in the way recommended by our aimmah i.e by crying, weeping and showing anguish on our faces and beating our chests lightly.

Now if you cannot quote anyone on Ask 'trying to stop azadari' should we conclude that you have LIED? And should your definition of lies apply in this case?
smma59 wrote:
hasin wrote:Brother smma59

You have not answered my question

Are you saying that anyone who has ever said a lie is a kaafir?

Please try to give a Yes or No answer this time
My Reply is "Disbelievers are liars" (16.39). and in the same way Liers are disbelivers.
ws
#11926
I have noticed you have been copy pasting the following all over the forums
smma59 wrote: Ayatullh Tabrizi Adviced in his Last will to all of us.....

"My advice today for all the believers is to defend the rightful sect's postulates, and to not give anybody the chance to plant doubts and throw llusions in the public's minds and especially in the Husayni
rituals case, as the preservation of the sect depends on the preservation of the Husayni rituals."
Kindly give a reference to the entire will so the members can benefit from such advices.
#11927
smma59 wrote: As per you yours Alim studied ten years. without asking where he studied i would like to confirm he do not have any right to speak against mujtahuids and his senior scholars. and even Allam.
http://www.tnfj.org.pk/azadari/
Brother, who has misinformed you that anyone has said anything against the Mujtahids??? Can you please quote a statement that is against what a mujtahid has said by also posting the Mujtahids statement, so we can all try and understand what you are trying to say!
#11928
smma59 wrote: Ayatullah seestani said"
Question: What is the ruling regarding the lashing with chains, chest beating, and walking on fire on the occasion of mourning the martyrdom of Imam Hussain peace be upon him?

Answer: If (these are) not associated with extreme harm or loss of limb, there is no objection.
and you also agree that you also know this.....In fact this fatwa is well known fatwa and all scholar know this. what fatwa you quoted is same with change of wordings IF YOU WANT TO SAY AYATULLAH SEESTANI ISSUED TWO TYPE OF FATWA IN ONE HE SAID NO OBJECTION(CONDITION APPLY) AND IN ONE PROHIBITED THAN YOU ARE TRYING TO INSYLT HIM ALSO.
First, do you know when the above answer was issued? Can you please provide us with a date since you seem to be good at knowing at what dates answers are given(and as usual there is no reference)

Secondly, Have you read the fatwa from the Board of Istifta that is on the first post of this thread? Are you claiming that that reply is not from Aga Sistani's office (may Allah grant him a long healthy life)?

The reply is in accordance with his earlier ruling and this time since the conditions have increased to 2 in number (a decade ago, the condition of danger and loss of limb was the only one), he has given a strong recommendation to avoid any such practices, if those two conditions are present by saying 'should be avoided'
#11929
smma59 wrote: MAJORITY OF MUJTAHIDS SAID MORE OF LESS SAME iF THERE IS FEAR OF DEATH OR PERMANENT LOSS OF LIMB THEN IT IS PROHIBITED BECAUSE KILLING YOURSELVES WITH INTENTION OF CUTTING YOUR LIMB PERMANENTLY IS HARAM ACT..

WE ALL KNOW NO ONE TRY TO KILL OR CUT HIS LIMB PERMANENTLY...
No one has denied this. The maraje have now added another condition to this ruling. Is that so hard to understand and digest?
#11930
smma59 wrote: IN FACT I DO NOT KNOW WHO IS Shaykh Zayd Salami..SO ALL IS POSSIBLE.
Thanks for acknowledging a fact that should have stopped you from accusing someone you dont even know and calling him an AGENT (we all know what you meant).

Do you know who are famous for calling other muslims kaafirs?
#11931
smma59 wrote:Someone posted this ruling of ayatullah khamenai:
Walking on Fire in the Mourning Ceremony of Imam Ḥusayn (a.)
Q: What is the ruling concerning walking on fire in the mourning ceremony of Imam Ḥusayn (a.)?
A: According to shar‘, such acts are not justified. There are variable ways for commemorating the martyrdom of the Master of Martyrs (a.) such as talking about the sufferings of Ahl al-Bayt (a.) and weeping at the unfairness they faced.
The question come what we understand by his rulings?
The word NOT justifies means is not good practice in his eyes. It does not mean it is Haram, or .prohibited. and his followers can follow his rulings.
Brother, I request you to please read his ruling again and try and understand his fatwa before jumping to your own interpretations about what he meant!
smma59 wrote: I have seen personally so many scholars who are follower of ayatullah khomaini (r.a) and ayatullah khamenai ...sit and watch fire matam, explain its origin and encourage those who take part..
[/quote]

Brother, to explain the flaw of your argument above:
I have seen many followers of Aga Khamenei & Aga Sistani who drink alcohol and who trade in interest...
Islam is not defined by what Muslims do. Muslims are supposed to do what Islam says.
#11945
hasin wrote:
smma59 wrote: IN FACT I DO NOT KNOW WHO IS Shaykh Zayd Salami..SO ALL IS POSSIBLE.
Thanks for acknowledging a fact that should have stopped you from accusing someone you dont even know and calling him an AGENT (we all know what you meant).

Do you know who are famous for calling other muslims kaafirs?
salam
I do not know him that is why already said it is possible that some one spreading fitna here by his name just to defend yazeed laeen...

Read my previous posts .

IT IS NOW MORE DOUBT FULL AS SENDER OF MESSAGE BY HIS NAME DO NOT KNOW ABOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE AND SPREAD LIES BY HIS NAME AS SHAYKH STDUIED 2 years some times 8 years..

I am trying contact with local Aaalim of your locality to know more about this issue and also posted your replies on lies and janab a zainab issue...i also recd shaykh zayd's lectures last night and trying to understand who is he? till today i realised he is a reader and read from books by sitting in mimber.
ws
#11947
Good. I commend your choice of action. I think you should complete your research and then post opinions. (but thats my thought. Feel free to think otherwise)

I will give you facts on this discussion

1. This discussion is not about any one person
2. This discussion is to discuss whether qama zani and zanjeer should be avoided under certain circumstances
3. This discussion is to discuss those circumstances and establish whether it applies to Dar es Salaam or not
4. Majority of shia's in DSM are followers of Aga Sistani
5. The issue of historical differences is being discussed in the other thread http://www.ask.or.tz/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=2183

If you need any other information, feel free to ask.
#11948
Dear Hasin

Hypocrisy is not good on islamic discussion. you asked me question and i replied and once more it was proove your intention is not pleasing Allah. God knows the best.
any way start from here...In fact this is a post which you people neglected and diverted discussion and when realised it is on second page you once started to shout Oh this discussion is only for zanjeer zani. ect
Do You think you will never die and you will be able to fool like this To Allah also?

amy way start from here.:
Dear mohammad
Well this is hard to believe. It is okay to ask the "mulla chopris" for answers but when an aalim who has studied ten years, comes and tells us things we do not want to hear, we abuse and insult him?
As per you yours Alim studied ten years. without asking where he studied i would like to confirm he do not have any right to speak against mujtahuids and his senior scholars. and even Allam.
http://www.tnfj.org.pk/azadari/
Ayatullah seestani said"
Question: What is the ruling regarding the lashing with chains, chest beating, and walking on fire on the occasion of mourning the martyrdom of Imam Hussain peace be upon him?

Answer: If (these are) not associated with extreme harm or loss of limb, there is no objection.
and you also agree that you also know this.....In fact this fatwa is well known fatwa and all scholar know this. what fatwa you quoted is same with change of wordings IF YOU WANT TO SAY AYATULLAH SEESTANI ISSUED TWO TYPE OF FATWA IN ONE HE SAID NO OBJECTION(CONDITION APPLY) AND IN ONE PROHIBITED THAN YOU ARE TRYING TO INSYLT HIM ALSO.

MAJORITY OF MUJTAHIDS SAID MORE OF LESS SAME iF THERE IS FEAR OF DEATH OR PERMANENT LOSS OF LIMB THEN IT IS PROHIBITED BECAUSE KILLING YOURSELVES WITH INTENTION OF CUTTING YOUR LIMB PERMANENTLY IS HARAM ACT..

WE ALL KNOW NO ONE TRY TO KILL OR CUT HIS LIMB PERMANENTLY...
Sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say. Can you please elaborate?
You can write here and also listen your mullas lecture so i cant say you are blind and deaf BUt the question comes why you cant read this? CANT READ OR DO NOT WANT TO READ? SHOULD I QUOTE QURAN ABOUT YOUR THIS ACT?

I AM EXPLAINING YOU..ONCE MORE..MY QUOTED WORDS.which you intentionally do not want to read as you know we caught you.....

YOUR POST IS A OLD VERSION OF SAME CHAIN POST WITH WITH WISELY EDITED VERSION. EDITED BECAUSE PEOPLE CAUGHT YOU PEOPLE OPENLY DEFENDING YAZEEDI LASHKAR.
REFER THIS POST:
http://www.ezsoftech.com/mazloom/zanjeer.asp (Posted in 2002)
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=2170 ( MR mohamamd said Friday khutba of 4th Janary 2008)

I request all the members to read comments in both posts after quoted fatwa.....
Your first post is Shaykh Zayd Salami, in his Friday khutba of 4th Janary 2008 said this....(NEW VERSION 2008)

SAME POST WITH DIFFERENT EXPLAINATION WITH SAME REF FATWA IS HERE http://www.ezsoftech.com/mazloom/zanjeer.asp(OLD VERSION 2002)

Fatwa quoted by you and in old version is same BUT DIFFERENT IS EXPLANATION .INFACT IN THIS NEW VERSION JUST YOUR SO CALLED MULLA CHANGED FEW WORDS AND REMOVED FEW SENTENCES.

I AM FOR REF OF ALL THE MEMBERS QUOTING BOTH EXPLANATION.

NEW VERSION 2008 posted by muhammad
s can be seen quite clearly from the fatwas of these three great Mujtahids, actions like Qama Zani and Zanjeer must not be practiced. To support the Ulama’s belief that the kuffar misuse such actions, visit the sites below and see for yourself.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... _islam.htm
http://www.ansar.org/english/photos-eng.htm
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/maatam.htm


We then naturally come to the question, “How then, was Hadhhrat Uwais-al Qarni’s action justifiable?”
1. When Hadhrat Uwais broke his teeth, the enemies of Islam did not point that action out as something bad as they do now. Hence due to the situation today, the Ulama consider it best that such actions not be performed.

Surah Baqarah:Verse 104 is a Qur’anic reference to prove this viewpoint, as Allah says, “O you who believe, say not (unto the Prophet), Look upon us but say Look upon us…” The words raena and andharna have similar meanings in Arabic (look upon us). However, in Hebrew, raena is a swear word. Thus when the early Muslims used to call upon the Prophet with raena, the Jews used to mock them. To stop this mocking, Allah commanded the Muslims to refer to the Prophet differently.

2. When Hadhrat Uwais broke his teeth, he did it out of emotion and love for the Prophet. Thus when the Prophet used to praise Uwais, he did not praise the breaking of the teeth but the sincerity of the action.

3. Hadhrat Uwais broke his teeth only once; and never did he do any other such action. Thus we too cannot make it a habit as we see no continuation of such practice after Uwais; during the lifetime of the Prophet with the other As’hab or during the lifetime of the other Imams after the tragedy of Karbala. Imam Husayn (as) himself asked Bibi Zaynab (as) not to beat herself and pull her hair after his martyrdom.

As we have seen from the above explanations that the acts of Zanjeer, walking on fire and the like are not beneficial nor permissible. Let us, who have accused and abused the brave Shaykh go and apologize to him and to Imam Husayn (as) for our indecent actions. I would also like to ask those with “little education” to think carefully before slandering an alim or reciter of Husayn (as).

All of us must have experienced loss of a dear one and thus real grief at one time or the other. We will only then feel like beating our chests and heads. That is a spontaneous reaction to the grief. Such is the reaction we show during azadari, however, with a difference: after smoking a couple of cigarettes and gulping down some juice, after cracking a few jokes outside the imambara. Can we call that real grief?

And if it is very important for us to give out blood, then why not donate blood? This way, we will be spreading the message of Imam peacefully and saving lives too. And if we feel the spirit is not there while doing so, let us take an mp4 player with us and play a nawha while doing this noble act!


NOW OLD VERSION 2002 PUBLISHED BY TWEBSITE

After reading the above mentioned orders from two Great Ayatollah's of our times. People should start following the orders to safeguard Islam and to fail the propaganda of "Taghoot" and arrogant powers of this era against Shiites proving them "Crazy" & "Insane" people who beat themselves sometimes so hard even threatening their own lives. To see the propaganda of "Taghoot" by yourself to believe, please visit the below given four links.

As such the true form of Azadari (mourning) is relevant to Wilayat only. The Azadari seen mostly are a set of rituals which are done with the purpose of earning rewards, expressing love of Imam Hussain (a.s.) in the form of grief, or expressing condolence to his mother Fatima Zahra (s.a.). Whereas Azadari in its true sense is awakening of the Ummah to stand and protest against the Yazid of our age and denounce their cruel and harmful policies towards Islam, and this spirit is very much lacking in our Azadari sessions, and this can only be enlightened through the Wilayat of the righteous, that is the Ulama (Faqih) during the occultation of Imam-e-Zamana (a.t.f.s.).

As far as mourning is concerned and getting attention of entire world, then it should be done very nicely with "beating chests and heads with hands" and with complete discipline in procession. All the people should participate with fully dressed in black cloths. Then definitely it will impress the entire world and will force them to accept us as a peace loving people. On the other hand people fear from Shiites when they see them doing Zanjeer Zani crazily and from head to toe covered with blood.

Some people call it Mojeza (Miracle) of Imam Hussain (a.s.), that there is no infection out of the wounds of Zanjeer and Qama.

As far as no infection with Zanjeer and Qama is concerned, shows the lack of knowledge regarding cultures and religions of world. National Geographic channel has shown many times that in some countries they do the same things which Shiites do and they neither feel pain nor infection after doing so. Hence they can also claim it as Mojeza. So, it has been decided that religion can not be practiced according to our assumptions and self-made thoughts instead we should commemorate true Azadri with its soul.

Some says; this is an issue of Aqeeda, whereas Taqleed is forbidden in Aqeeda, so what concern we have with the Marjae's?

This is one more ignorant question. Aqeeda (Usool example Tauheed) is belief, beliefs are always in the heart, when the beliefs get manifested in practical form it becomes Furoo (example Salaat), and all Furoo are controlled by laws of Shariah. Now love for Allah is Tauheed, but when the same love comes into action it become Salaat, which is Furoo, and Shariah will tell us the way of Salaat. In a similar way, the love of Imam Hussain (a.s.) is Aqeeda, but when the same love comes in practical form, it becomes Furoo (example Azadari) and has to be controlled by Shariah.

As far as matter of Owais-e-Qarani is concerned, he didn't broke his teeth's deliberately but infact it was emotional act and was not pre-planned thing rather than it was unplanned and very quick as he heard the news of the Prophet's broken teeth's. So if we suppose that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) didn't object on it then even we can't relate it to Zanjeer and Qama Zani's permission. Because (1) we do this Zanjeer and Qama Zani pre-planned and we do it every year and Owais-e-Qarani did it only once so we can't make habit of it. (2) we see no continuation of such practice after Owais-e-Qarani, hence proving that its not desirable or Mustahab thing otherwise other companions (Sahabas) would have done it or after that any of companions of Aimma would have done it when hearing martyrdom of any Imam.

Hence it is proved that we find no legal status of shedding blood deliberately and make a practice of it every year rather then we should try to find out the ways which Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) has done, don't forget after Imam Hussain (AS), we have the history of eight (8) Imams, its not less. Why sticks on the act of Owais-e-Qarani only hence try to prove baseless thing?
I REQUEST ALL THE MEMBERS TO READ BOTH CAREFULLY AND THINK IF REALLY POST OF MUHAMMAD IS A KHUTBA GIVEN BY Shaykh Zayd Salami in his Friday khutba of 4th Janary 2008?
IF YES THEN WHO IS Shaykh Zayd Salami ? A SCHOLAR OR ANY AGENT READING POST PREPARED (IN 2002) BY DUSHMANAAN E ISLAM IN FRIDAY KHUTBA?
OR
THIS MAN TRYING TO MISGUIDE US BY TAKING NAME OF SHIA SCHOLAR Shaykh Zayd Salami?

IN FACT I DO NOT KNOW WHO IS Shaykh Zayd Salami..SO ALL IS POSSIBLE.

wassalam
#11953
Brother smma59,

if you take a few minutes and go through this page, I have meticulously (point by point) answered each one of your doubts that you expressed in your post that you have decided to post all over again above here

Please read.
#11954
smma59 wrote:
Your first post is Shaykh Zayd Salami, in his Friday khutba of 4th Janary 2008 said this....(NEW VERSION 2008)

SAME POST WITH DIFFERENT EXPLAINATION WITH SAME REF FATWA IS HERE http://www.ezsoftech.com/mazloom/zanjeer.asp(OLD VERSION 2002)

Fatwa quoted by you and in old version is same BUT DIFFERENT IS EXPLANATION .INFACT IN THIS NEW VERSION JUST YOUR SO CALLED MULLA CHANGED FEW WORDS AND REMOVED FEW SENTENCES.

I AM FOR REF OF ALL THE MEMBERS QUOTING BOTH EXPLANATION.

NEW VERSION 2008 posted by muhammad
s can be seen quite clearly from the fatwas of these three great Mujtahids, actions like Qama Zani and Zanjeer must not be practiced. To support the Ulama’s belief that the kuffar misuse such actions, visit the sites below and see for yourself.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... _islam.htm
http://www.ansar.org/english/photos-eng.htm
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/maatam.htm


We then naturally come to the question, “How then, was Hadhhrat Uwais-al Qarni’s action justifiable?”
1. When Hadhrat Uwais broke his teeth, the enemies of Islam did not point that action out as something bad as they do now. Hence due to the situation today, the Ulama consider it best that such actions not be performed.

Surah Baqarah:Verse 104 is a Qur’anic reference to prove this viewpoint, as Allah says, “O you who believe, say not (unto the Prophet), Look upon us but say Look upon us…” The words raena and andharna have similar meanings in Arabic (look upon us). However, in Hebrew, raena is a swear word. Thus when the early Muslims used to call upon the Prophet with raena, the Jews used to mock them. To stop this mocking, Allah commanded the Muslims to refer to the Prophet differently.

2. When Hadhrat Uwais broke his teeth, he did it out of emotion and love for the Prophet. Thus when the Prophet used to praise Uwais, he did not praise the breaking of the teeth but the sincerity of the action.

3. Hadhrat Uwais broke his teeth only once; and never did he do any other such action. Thus we too cannot make it a habit as we see no continuation of such practice after Uwais; during the lifetime of the Prophet with the other As’hab or during the lifetime of the other Imams after the tragedy of Karbala. Imam Husayn (as) himself asked Bibi Zaynab (as) not to beat herself and pull her hair after his martyrdom.

As we have seen from the above explanations that the acts of Zanjeer, walking on fire and the like are not beneficial nor permissible. Let us, who have accused and abused the brave Shaykh go and apologize to him and to Imam Husayn (as) for our indecent actions. I would also like to ask those with “little education” to think carefully before slandering an alim or reciter of Husayn (as).

All of us must have experienced loss of a dear one and thus real grief at one time or the other. We will only then feel like beating our chests and heads. That is a spontaneous reaction to the grief. Such is the reaction we show during azadari, however, with a difference: after smoking a couple of cigarettes and gulping down some juice, after cracking a few jokes outside the imambara. Can we call that real grief?

And if it is very important for us to give out blood, then why not donate blood? This way, we will be spreading the message of Imam peacefully and saving lives too. And if we feel the spirit is not there while doing so, let us take an mp4 player with us and play a nawha while doing this noble act!
Now, as for the reason no one responded to your above claim is because you simply misunderstood Muhammads post.

Muhammad never said that the above was spoken by the shayk

That was muhammads own post and opinion (which he later confirmed was written by putting together material from different sites.)
Muhammad Mahdi wrote: My post was a compilation of the different material I found available. Some of it was from the site you have posted and some from elsewhere. However, I do not think I was defending Yazeed.
http://www.ask.or.tz/posting.php?mode=q ... 45&p=11809
You decided to assume that it was what the shaykh said, and hence your misunderstanding.
#11958
smma59 wrote:It is better not to take name of shaykh zayd....and continue discussion....
If you take his name produce his words only...

In fact everything is clear and i personally know who compiled 2002 edition and this 2008 edition and you people just picked to discuss here...
ws
So was it by mistake that you assumed that the post was what shaykh said?

or you knew it wasnt shayk's words but yet you told us that they were?
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