Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

The sad first month of the Islamic calendar during which the family of the Holy Prophet were faced with a great ordeal and tragedy.
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 23 Feb 2008, 02:46

smma59 wrote:Is there any reason for going in deep ? only one i understant just to make fun of masaeb e zainab.. in fact you people cant imagine all the masaeb otherwise how can any shia ..have courage to discuss this...
ws


If there is no reason to talk about it, then why do we recite and recount the whole event in details in our majalises?

Are you saying our Zakireen are wrong and should not be reciting it?

Because they surely say her hijab was snatched and her hair uncovered

Do you think this is an insult to Janabe Zainab (a.s.) (naudhubillah)
smma59
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 76
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 16:12

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby smma59 » 23 Feb 2008, 03:01

hasin wrote:
smma59 wrote:Is there any reason for going in deep ? only one i understant just to make fun of masaeb e zainab.. in fact you people cant imagine all the masaeb otherwise how can any shia ..have courage to discuss this...
ws


If there is no reason to talk about it, then why do we recite and recount the whole event in details in our majalises?

Are you saying our Zakireen are wrong and should not be reciting it?

Because they surely say her hijab was snatched and her hair uncovered

Do you think this is an insult to Janabe Zainab (a.s.) (naudhubillah)

Salamalykum,

I would like to quote last words of mujtahid and also maula Ali(A.s) here just after reading few posts by some agents of enemies. who are trying to plant doubts and throw llusions in the public's minds and especially in the Husayni
rituals case,in mind of our youth .

Ayatullh Tabrizi Adviced in his Last will to all of us.....

"My advice today for all the believers is to defend the rightful sect's postulates, and to not give anybody the chance to plant doubts and throw llusions in the public's minds and especially in the Husayni
rituals case, as the preservation of the sect depends on the preservation of the Husayni rituals."
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 23 Feb 2008, 03:09

I see you have chosen not to answer my question

Just in case you overlooked it, I am posting it again. Please answer when you have the time

hasin wrote:
smma59 wrote:Is there any reason for going in deep ? only one i understant just to make fun of masaeb e zainab.. in fact you people cant imagine all the masaeb otherwise how can any shia ..have courage to discuss this...
ws


If there is no reason to talk about it, then why do we recite and recount the whole event in details in our majalises?

Are you saying our Zakireen are wrong and should not be reciting it?

Because they surely say her hijab was snatched and her hair uncovered

Do you think this is an insult to Janabe Zainab (a.s.) (naudhubillah)
smma59
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 76
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 16:12

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby smma59 » 23 Feb 2008, 03:24

hasin wrote:I see you have chosen not to answer my question

Just in case you overlooked it, I am posting it again. Please answer when you have the time

hasin wrote:
smma59 wrote:Is there any reason for going in deep ? only one i understant just to make fun of masaeb e zainab.. in fact you people cant imagine all the masaeb otherwise how can any shia ..have courage to discuss this...
ws


If there is no reason to talk about it, then why do we recite and recount the whole event in details in our majalises?

Are you saying our Zakireen are wrong and should not be reciting it?

Because they surely say her hijab was snatched and her hair uncovered

Do you think this is an insult to Janabe Zainab (a.s.) (naudhubillah)


Ayatullh Tabrizi Adviced in his Last will to all of us.....

"My advice today for all the believers is to defend the rightful sect's postulates, and to not give anybody the chance to plant doubts and throw llusions in the public's minds and especially in the Husayni
rituals case, as the preservation of the sect depends on the preservation of the Husayni rituals."
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 23 Feb 2008, 13:24

Seems like you have agreed with me.

Cant think of any other reason why you have not answered my questions.

Thanks
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 23 Feb 2008, 23:38

Back to the topic at hand,

It seems we have all agreed that based on certain conditions, the ulema instruct any act (including zanjeer) to be avoided. The 2 conditions identified are:

1. danger of permanent damage, loss of limbs or loss of life
2. danger of defaming the cause of Imam Hussain (AS) i.e Islam

[this also means, that IF neither of these two conditions are present, those that want to practice Zanjeer Zani can do so]

So the real question here is, do any of these conditions apply to the Zanjeer Zani that takes place in Dar es Salaam and the khandaq that takes place in Morogoro?
SyedBaqir
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 21
Joined: 14 Oct 2004, 11:34
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby SyedBaqir » 24 Feb 2008, 11:26

Brother smma59 and Brother Hasin

I really appreciate the time you are all taking to discuss the issue.

But I think that another thread discussing the chadar of Bibi's is open http://www.ask.or.tz/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=2183&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I would appreciate if both of you could discuss it there and leave this thread for Zanjeer

Thank you
Imam Ali (as) said: "Do not talk about knowledge with the foolish so that they deny you, nor with the ignorant so that they find you oppressive, but talk about it with those of its people whom you meet who will accept it and understand it.".
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 24 Feb 2008, 23:24

I agree

my apologies for getting carried away into off-topic discussions
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 26 Feb 2008, 10:39

smma59 wrote:
Ayatullh Tabrizi Adviced in his Last will to all of us.....

"My advice today for all the believers is to defend the rightful sect's postulates, and to not give anybody the chance to plant doubts and throw llusions in the public's minds and especially in the Husayni
rituals case, as the preservation of the sect depends on the preservation of the Husayni rituals."


I did a quick search online so I could put up a reference for the above will.

Surprisingly, only your own sites came up which have published this will :shock:

Perhaps I didnt search well enough

Can someone else please try
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 26 Feb 2008, 10:42

Perhaps, we need some perspective.

Find below a statement by Ayatullah Fazel Lankarani

In the name of Allah, the Merciful the Compassionate

With the advent of the month of Muharram grief and sorrow reappear in the hearts of all believers ranging from the Seal of the Infallibles, the Imam of the Time (may Allah hasten his reappearance) to the rest of the Muslims including the entire freedom lovers. The event of Ashura is the only immortal event of the history that will never be put into oblivion and the number of enthusiasts and lovers of Imam Husain (a.s.) is increasing as the time passes. It is therefore necessary upon his followers to make their best efforts to commemorate the event and pay further tribute to the Imam and hold more commemoration ceremonies.
What we must take notice of is that now-a-days elements such as the misguided Wahabiat sect and tyrant governments such as Israel and the US are now seeking destruction of Islam and trying to harm the religion of the holy Ahlalbayt. The Wahabis leave no stone unturned in spreading lies, slanders and statements which are anti - Quran and anti - tradition. They are making a mockery of the signs and rituals of religion including weeping and lamentation over the sorrows and sufferings of Husain bin Ali upon whom wept all the prophets from Adam to Khatam (the last prophet). They are conspiring in and out of the Islamic country of Iran with the means and equipments of the tyrants and infidelity and by way of altering the Quran and self-made interpretation of some of its holy verses and by accusing Shia of Shirk (polytheism) so as to damage its reputation and separate people from wilayat and adherence to the holy Ahlalbayt.
According to some reports, the global arrogance and the CIA have allocated a large budget for the destruction of Shia and one of their strategies for the said purpose is to temper with the Ashura lamentations (mourning rituals) and steer them in a wrong direction. What is obviously a matter of pity is that some of the followers of Imam Husain, undoubtedly those of the devoted ones are following suit and beating the same drum and are unconsciously doing what the enemies of religion want them to do. Today, Wahabiat is accusing Shia of Shirk whereas Shia has the loftiest monotheistic teachings and Ali (a.s.), Commander of the Faithful, and the great man of Tawhid is Shia's guide and leader. Why should a speaker help to this cause by reciting poems which give an odor of infidelity and Shirk (polytheism)? We have repeatedly stated that if these people cautiously and volitionally utter such words, it is considered Shirk and Shia loaths them and is sick of them.
Respected speakers Noha readers who are proud of having the success of serving the cause of Imam Husain must take such matters into consideration and let not poisonous hands place them at the mercy of their evil objectives. People should be cautious of the words and sayings of the speakers and reporters of the event of Ashura and accept only those sayings which are supported with evidence lest we should not be included by the holy verse of the Holy Quran which says, "(These are ) they whose labor is lost in this world's life and they think that they are well versed in skill of the work of hands. {18:104}"
May Allah resurrect all of us with Husain bin Ali - alaihessalam

Muhammad Fazel Lankarani
16/Feb/2005



reference: http://www.lankarani.org/eng/mes/005.html
SyedBaqir
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 21
Joined: 14 Oct 2004, 11:34
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby SyedBaqir » 29 Feb 2008, 18:47

Coming back to the Zanjeer issue:

Has anyone noticed that none of the great maraja have decreed zanjeer to be haraam.

Before you ask,

Ayatullah Khamenei has not said anything against zanjeer itself, but rather the circumstances surrounding it.

Does it imply that once our 12th Imam reappears and the world remains with true believers only, then even according to Ayatullah Khamenei Zanjeer would be okay? Since then there would be no disbelievers!!!

On the other hand there are some Ulama who have even recommended Zanjeer.

I fail to understand why should someone say zanjeer is haraam when all our grand Ayatullahs have refrained from doing so. Is it simply because he/she cannot comprehend it.
Imam Ali (as) said: "Do not talk about knowledge with the foolish so that they deny you, nor with the ignorant so that they find you oppressive, but talk about it with those of its people whom you meet who will accept it and understand it.".
User avatar
abuali
Ask Admin
Posts: 3664
Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 19:33
Location: Dar es Salaam
Contact:

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 29 Feb 2008, 22:43

Like I was asked one time earlier in this forum

What do you think is meant by 'should be avoided'?
shalujaffer
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 1
Joined: 01 Jun 2008, 11:58

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby shalujaffer » 09 Jun 2008, 00:45

THIS IS FORWARDED MSG ....


]Salaams to all momineen,
I have been receiving different opinions from brethren at our mosque as well as e mails regarding Dr. Murtuza Alidina.
There is no doubt that Dr. Alidina is a scholar and i have always supported him. On a regular basis i have attended his lectures and have never missed praying the jamat namaaz led by him. I have always handed utmost respect to Dr. Alidina...........

Until his official speech in connection with recent disputes in our community. I had left home and proceeded towards the mosque with bright expectations, but later returned home disappointed with the man i upheld in such great esteem.

I have nothing much to say about zanjeer, qaman issue as Dr. Alidina was not wrong in stating the differing views among Mujtahedeen concerning the practice of zanjeer. I suppose, those doing zanjeer may disagree with me, but i feel his presentation on this subject was not unfair.

What struck real hard leaving me dismayed and confused was his mis handling of the Hijab/chadar issue. The hijab matter in my eyes is a much more important matter than zanjeer.
Dr. Alidina's conclusion that books carried both versions regarding the hijabs of the women of Karbala shocked me. Some books narrate that the hijabs were stolen others did not! Did i hear correctly? Were these the words of a scholar whom i trusted, admired and supported? I could possibly ignore all this if it came from a younger scholar or a teenager, but listening to this from a highly knowledgeable person left me confused.

If the whole matter was finalized for others, it wasn't for me. A strong debate erupted within my family leaving us with an atmosphere of uneasiness.The perplexing questions were: Were the hijabs looted or not? Which books to believe and which books to ignore? Which books were correct and which books were wrong?
These questions relentlessly pursued us subjecting me to many sleepless nights! The matter was finally clarified..........

A friend forwarded me an e mail by Kulsum Jagani!

If we leave aside or ignore the strong language used by the writer, I think the case presented by her is very strong.
The events begining from Shame Ghariba through Kufa to Shaam provide ample evidence that the women had undergone the tragedy of having their faces and heads exposed. Another shocker came my way upon discovering that the writer had revealed the fact that Ayatollah Sistani had already confirmed to zawars from dar es salaam that the women had travelled to Kufa and Shaam bare faced and bareheaded. How could Dr. Alidina ignore the statement of our Mujtahed?
If the Mujtahed has decided; what rights do we have to present both versions? Is it not completely binding on us to comply with what our Mujtahed says? It was but a simple matter to have called the office of Ayatollah Sistani and confirmed the matter with him!

This alarming reality has increased my doubts a hundred fold about the man whom i came to regard as a father to our community.
I am no scholar and Dr. Alidina is no mujtahed, therefore a simple person like myself can only beseech the Almighty to grant our community tawfiq to give top priority to the words of our Mujtahed!

The writer in my view might have done a good deed by using the name of a deceased person. Whereas i have never known the actual Kulsum Jagani, i have now included the marhuma's name in the list of persons remembered in my midnight prayers.

Was SalaaM,
Fatimah Zahra Karim
Ask Senior
Ask Senior
Posts: 437
Joined: 28 Oct 2004, 17:30

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 14 Jun 2008, 21:50

@ shalujaffer: This doesn't seem like the correct thread to post this in, since the author of the msg doesn't have anything to say about zanjeer or qama zani. His point of disagreement is the hijab issue. That has its own thread. I suggest you remove this from here.

Secondly...and this is just a note...Dr. Alidina may not be a mujtahid, but he is definitely higher up the ladder than the rest of us, including the writer of this email, who admits that he is not even a scholar.

Like I've said elsewhere on the forum, can we please limit discussions to ideas and leave out the people? “Great minds discuss ideas; Moderate minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people”
If Allah assists you, there is none that can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, then who is there that can assist you after Him? And on Allah should the believers rely (Qur'an 3:160)
husseinfazel
Ask Member
Ask Member
Posts: 6
Joined: 30 Nov 2007, 22:35

Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby husseinfazel » 13 Oct 2008, 17:46

dear fatema zahra karim
WHY SHOULD V AVOID ZANJEER AND WHAT PROOF DO U HV TO SAY THAT THE VEIL OF BIBI ZAINAB WAS NOT SNATCHED AND THAT THERE WAS WATER ON ASHURA NIGHT AS YOU HAD MENTIONED IN 1 OF YOUR POSTS THAT IMAM HUSSEIN (A.S) AND HIS PEOPLE PERFOMED GHUSL ON ASHURA NIGHT

PLS REPLY
HUSSEIN FAZEL

Return to “Muharram and the revolution of Kerbala”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest