Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

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Zanjeer, Qama Zani - Should they be avoided? - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 12 Jan 2008, 00:55

Salaam Alaykum,

This Muharram, we have been blessed with the sermons of three learned individuals in three languages: Gujrati, English and Urdu

Alhamdulilah a lot of important topics are being presented and talked upon

One such topic was the etiquette of azaadari and the two so called 'extremes'

One side supposedly opposed to the forms of azaadari as a total and encouraging 'civilized discussions and forums' instead of crying and majalises and maatam

The other performing acts in the name of azaadari that supposedly 'bring a bad name to Imam Hussain (as) as well as Islam'

Is there an extreme to how we conduct our azaadari?

If so, what? and why?
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes: When is it out of bounds? Or is it ev

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 17 Jan 2008, 07:08

Shaykh Zayd Salami, in his Friday khutba of 4th Janary 2008, talked about the behavior of Muslims with regards to Imam Husayn (as) and his sacrifice of Karbala. He firstly mentioned the extreme some “modern” muslim go to refuse to pronouse “La’ana” to the enemies of Ahlul Bayt (as), to the point of even removing it from reliable Ziarat of Ashura and why "La'an" should be done on the enemies of Ahlul Bayt (as). He went on to explain on the other hand the extremes people go to, in the name of Azadari, to do things that are not beneficial to them or to the cause of Imam Husayn (as). Among the several acts he mentioned, was Zanjeer which is practiced by some in Dar-es-Salaam. Following his explanation on the prohibition of such acts, the Dar-es-Salaam community erupted in debates and arguments to the extent that some punches were thrown, and security provided for the Shaykh.

The purpose of this writing is to explain to the reader, what is right and what is wrong with the aid of Masail from our esteemed Mujtahideen, ahadith and basic common sense.

According to his Eminence Ayatullah Sistani, "The principal objective of mourning and lamentation during 'Ashura, is to respect the signs and symbols of Religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain (a), his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these loft goals. Also, its ritual aspect should be preserved. So those actions which are not understandable for the enemies of Islam and non-Shia Muslims and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided."

According to Late Ayatullah Lankarani, "The philosophy of mourning during 'Ashura, is to respect the symbols of Religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain (a), his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. Obviously, Qama Zani does not have such a role and the enemies of Ahlalbayt misuse it. So those actions which are not understandable for the enemies of Islam and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided."
http://www.lankarani.org/eng/faq/q.html
http://www.lankarani.org/eng/faq/a.html#Azadari

Ayatullah Khamenei also expresses a similar view in his Practical Laws of Islam under Religious Events whilst answering a question from a muqallid.

Q1450. Is hitting oneself with swords Halal if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwa in this regard universal?

Ans. In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.

As can be seen quite clearly from the fatwas of these three great Mujtahids, actions like Qama Zani and Zanjeer must not be practiced. To support the Ulama’s belief that the kuffar misuse such actions, visit the sites below and see for yourself.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... _islam.htm
http://www.ansar.org/english/photos-eng.htm
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/maatam.htm


We then naturally come to the question, “How then, was Hadhhrat Uwais-al Qarni’s action justifiable?”
1. When Hadhrat Uwais broke his teeth, the enemies of Islam did not point that action out as something bad as they do now. Hence due to the situation today, the Ulama consider it best that such actions not be performed.

Surah Baqarah:Verse 104 is a Qur’anic reference to prove this viewpoint, as Allah says, “O you who believe, say not (unto the Prophet), Look upon us but say Look upon us…” The words raena and andharna have similar meanings in Arabic (look upon us). However, in Hebrew, raena is a swear word. Thus when the early Muslims used to call upon the Prophet with raena, the Jews used to mock them. To stop this mocking, Allah commanded the Muslims to refer to the Prophet differently.


2. When Hadhrat Uwais broke his teeth, he did it out of emotion and love for the Prophet. Thus when the Prophet used to praise Uwais, he did not praise the breaking of the teeth but the sincerity of the action.

3. Hadhrat Uwais broke his teeth only once; and never did he do any other such action. Thus we too cannot make it a habit as we see no continuation of such practice after Uwais; during the lifetime of the Prophet with the other As’hab or during the lifetime of the other Imams after the tragedy of Karbala. Imam Husayn (as) himself asked Bibi Zaynab (as) not to beat herself and pull her hair after his martyrdom.

As we have seen from the above explanations that the acts of Zanjeer, walking on fire and the like are not beneficial nor permissible. Let us, who have accused and abused the brave Shaykh go and apologize to him and to Imam Husayn (as) for our indecent actions. I would also like to ask those with “little education” to think carefully before slandering an alim or reciter of Husayn (as).

All of us must have experienced loss of a dear one and thus real grief at one time or the other. We will only then feel like beating our chests and heads. That is a spontaneous reaction to the grief. Such is the reaction we show during azadari, however, with a difference: after smoking a couple of cigarettes and gulping down some juice, after cracking a few jokes outside the imambara. Can we call that real grief?

And if it is very important for us to give out blood, then why not donate blood? This way, we will be spreading the message of Imam peacefully and saving lives too. And if we feel the spirit is not there while doing so, let us take an mp4 player with us and play a nawha while doing this noble act!
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes: When is it out of bounds? Or is it ev

Postby abuali » 17 Jan 2008, 12:47

To add more information to Muhammads post above, I feel its important to also publish
Compiled by:
Sayyid Murtaza Rizvi, Dar es Salaam

The discerning reader will notice that the rulings in the above compilation and the one posted by Muhammad are actually supporting one another.

May Allah (SWT) guide us all.

I do agree that if any ba-akhlaqi (ill mannerism) has been done, that is surely (ask any Ulema) a sin and definitely the AImmah are unhappy with it. Measures need to be taken to rectify any such actions or words and ask for forgiveness.
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes: When is it out of bounds? Or is it ev

Postby abuali » 17 Jan 2008, 12:55

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:Q1450. Is hitting oneself with swords Halal if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwa in this regard universal?

Ans. In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.


Any references either online (Ayatullahs site) or in print available in Dar, to verify the above?

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:As we have seen from the above explanations that the acts of Zanjeer, walking on fire and the like are not beneficial nor permissible. Let us, who have accused and abused the brave Shaykh go and apologize to him and to Imam Husayn (as) for our indecent actions. I would also like to ask those with “little education” to think carefully before slandering an alim or reciter of Husayn (as).


I think the use of the term 'not permissible' is incorrect.

You will notice in the reply by the Board of Istifta, the words used are 'must be avoided'
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes: When is it out of bounds? Or is it ev

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 17 Jan 2008, 16:30

Hasin wrote:Any references either online (Ayatullahs site) or in print available in Dar, to verify the above?

Practical Laws of Islam under Religious Events

Hasin wrote:I think the use of the term 'not permissible' is incorrect.

What is the difference between 'must be avoided' and 'not permissible'?
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes: When is it out of bounds? Or is it ev

Postby abuali » 17 Jan 2008, 17:41

http://www.islam-pure.de/imam/fatwas/practical00.htm

The above is the link to Practical Laws of Islam By Ayatullah al-Uzma Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamene’i but i could not find the Q&A quoted neither the Religious Events section. Kindly help!

'must be avoided' implies a pre-condition (refer to the answer) leading to a recommendation of avoiding while 'not permissible' implies haraam (a sin if one does it)
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 17 Jan 2008, 19:23

If it was a recommendation, then better be avoided would ave been used. Must implies a command.

Walking on Fire in the Mourning Ceremony of Imam Ḥusayn (a.)
Q: What is the ruling concerning walking on fire in the mourning ceremony of Imam Ḥusayn (a.)?
A: According to shar‘, such acts are not justified. There are variable ways for commemorating the martyrdom of the Master of Martyrs (a.) such as talking about the sufferings of Ahl al-Bayt (a.) and weeping at the unfairness they faced.

Ayatullah Khamenei http://www.leader.ir/langs/EN/index.php?p=sendletter#
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 18 Jan 2008, 00:21

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:If it was a recommendation, then better be avoided would ave been used. Must implies a command.

Walking on Fire in the Mourning Ceremony of Imam Ḥusayn (a.)
Q: What is the ruling concerning walking on fire in the mourning ceremony of Imam Ḥusayn (a.)?
A: According to shar‘, such acts are not justified. There are variable ways for commemorating the martyrdom of the Master of Martyrs (a.) such as talking about the sufferings of Ahl al-Bayt (a.) and weeping at the unfairness they faced.

Ayatullah Khamenei http://www.leader.ir/langs/EN/index.php?p=sendletter#
Open newly asked questions.


Must does imply a command in relation to the condition that has been mentioned prior to the command of must. If the condition is not present, the command would not be present.

Thanks for the q&a about Khandaq. Any similar q&a by Aga Sistani about khandaq?

Did you manage to get a reference or link to the previous quote?
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 18 Jan 2008, 14:57

Did you manage to get a reference or link to the previous quote?

No, I dont know where I lost it. :oops:

Ayatullah Seestani mentions any act that defames Islam. Khandaq definitely falls under that.
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes

Postby hasanrizvi » 20 Jan 2008, 15:14

dear bro Mohammed Mehdi,
I had read ur views regarding Zanjeer,Khandaq & qama(tatbir).
First of all i like to mention that i had posted mail under zanjeer & Qama but since that account of hasan amir is opening so am using this id.
I would like to tell you that even i believe and condemn the acts of sending sms or saying filthy words or threating resident sheikh is not right.
Now Lets start from Juma Khutba where he never said clear cut that zanjeer or qama is haraam he said if it defames islam , most of us agree and even if doing lanaats on dushmane ahlul bayt defames school thought it sould be avoided (this also he said i will explain later) but when he was asked not to do so he did so, am i right.Secondly he said Hijab of Bibi zainab a.s. or veil was not snatched here he asked where is Taqwa. I would like to ask Imam -e- Mazloom's clothes were looted Bibi Sakina a.s. was slapped by Lanati Shimr-e-Jaushan and whenever Imam Zainul Abdeen a.s. was asked he replied SHAM SHAM SHAM for what?.
After Khutba we requested sheikh for meeting. am not quoting the full meeting issue coz it might spread Fitna since this is a open forum in short Zanjeer qama and fire walking was not right according to him still am writing the words used. here is said about lanaat mentioned above if it brings disunity and sunnis attending ur majalis then its haraam to say so.
Brother my question is according to Quran to spread Fitna is Haraam right, Sheikh said many time this is a sensitive issue and i think he said controversial also so isnt it was a duty not to raise this issue.
Now i want to comment upon fatawat. First i would like to visit this website. http://www.jafariyanews.com/fatawa.htm
After seeing the fatwat fo Marja ikram mind it these not mere replies which is quoted by you.
You quoted Ayatullah Khamenei and you should have mentioned clearly thats its istefta not fatwa and second one of Ayatullah al Hussein Sistani(whom most of Tanzanian shias follow), here also question was asked had you read the question clearly especially the second part where again smell of Fitna was there between followers of two Marja.Then the reply was those acts.......must be avoided. Now i ask you my dear borther didnt many other issues fall under those acts for enimies of islam and non shia espeacially MUTAH , Mohar used for salaat. Taziya termed as Biddat and idol worshipping world-wide. Since in dar es salam its not falling under those acts we do so, so is for Zanjeer Qama khandaq.
I think we should help and end this controversy rather than adding fuel to it. Secondly those who had never done zanjeer etc will never do and those who are doing will look to Marja everytime issue raised forgetting the previous fatwa or answer like before it was said that by Ayatullaha Sistani that if there is no fear of loss of life or damage to limb then there is no harm in it.
My another question is we had so many Aalims coming to dar and presently respected Dr. Alidina is there who knows DAR more than us as he is from here only and is elder to us by many years Did he ever said Biddat or Haraam or refrain from it. Zakir Roohani had explained so nicely in his majlis while quoting Quranic Ayat about Shae'er Allah where he mentioned Zuljanah also which is not practised here as Shae'er e-Hussein a.s. so if anything is associated with Imam Hussein a.s. is done, its due to be respected.
Brother Mehdi we say zanjeer etc casts bad image of school of thought then how can you justify MUTAH while 2nd caliph has forbidden it.
Can we justify ALAM and TABOOT as it was also not taken out in any Imam's Time (except our 12th Imam a.j.t.f. who is present) due to so many oppressor zalim kings etc ,so can we stop it by saying biddat. If you remember Agha Burujardi had forbidden kissing of zari of imams as at that time it was portraying some sort bad image of our culture, Imam Khomeni allowed womens to open their face only first time while agha Khoei didnt allowed. My point is that there are many things i mean the rulings which takes place due to situations prevailing and none of our marja did wrong neither i say Ayatullah Khamenei did wrong its his ruling and its due to be respected by their followers but it never bounds follower of marja to do neither one can force that ruling to other ,due you agree ? specially when there is fear of conflict IT MUST BE AVOIDED right ?
I had a objection for the words used by you with care LESS LEARNED in our dictonery there is two words either Learned or Ignorant if you cant use it for someone then avoid it.
We are followers of Maula Ali a.s. and we love him only him and his progeny and his followers as Imam Jafar Sadiq a.s. said love of me and my enemy cant stay in one heart. So refer to the lecture recited on Shadat of sons of Hazrat Muslim a.s. where some smell of love for ibne Ziyad casted.
I had lot more to say but i will inshallah do so and if possible give out more sayings of Mullas in private mail to you with witnesses.

May ALLAH swt hasten the appearance of our Imam a.s. so that we can be among the soldiers of Imam a.s. and by his commmand distroy the root of Fitna.

waslaam
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes

Postby hasanrizvi » 20 Jan 2008, 15:35

Dear Brother Hasin,

May Maula help you in your big efforts.
You had raised a billion dollar question. I want to raise a counter question which answer your question.Shia islam is questioned always for azadari as a whole,mutah,mohar and ziyarats by Non Shia and Zanjeer etc by Shia.My question is yesterday and today which was and is the most respected religion.Even yesterday from centuries azadari with all its rituals were done didnt it attracted non shia and reformed them wasnt it azadari which played major role, its reli surprising today that itself is questioned.
Brother hasin lemme have a previlage to say that the more you try to chain azadari-e-mazloom a.s. more it will flourish and those who are not doing will always oppose do you remember there was a issue for Niyaz as well termed as ISRAH that too raised by those who were not giving a penny for it and here also those who are not doing from ages then never asked question even though at time they were aware it isn't haraam now to justify those refraining from it they are doing so and those who were doing wants to save the rituals i request you to listen to majlis of Maulana HASAN SADIQ http://www.mksileicester.org/ he is a aalim all believe and he requested to continue doing azadari as our fore fathers left.
Brother lemme tell you one thing more Azadari is a Aqida and till nothing haraam like Behijabi or something is done it never falls under shariat. For the of love imam Hussein a.s. Prophet acted like a camel with reins and sound amazing how can a leader and reason of every creature formation doing so the biggest after ALLAH who never said anything apart what ALLAH wanted is becoming a lowly creature as humans are termed ashraful makhlukat and if we do mere a bit for Imam Hussein a.s. its termed as Biddat like words is it correct.I think i had accidently replied one question raised before.
may Mohammed Aley MOhammed help you brother,

wasalaam
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 20 Jan 2008, 15:45

Dear Brother Hasan

Welcome to this forum, inshallah, since we have begun in His name and are sincere in our intention to be guided, knowing that only He can guide and He guides whom He pleases, inshallah our discussions will be fruitful.

I couldnt help but get the feeling that you have misunderstood intentions of some of the posters in this forum, in particular Br. Muhammad Mahdi's and my own.

To make my stance clear (Br. Muhammad please explain your stance) i dont think anyone here is against Azaadari. Perhaps we differ in our definitions of azaadari

If you would kindly go to the top of this forum and re-read my posts, inshallah you will be convinced of this

There are many points that you have raised that I want to comment on, but I will refrain from doing so until we agree on out Aqidah that none of my posts are against Azaadari.

Kindly let me know if this is clear, so we can continue our discussions
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Re: Azaadari - Etiquettes

Postby hasanrizvi » 20 Jan 2008, 16:10

brother hasin,
I never said you are against Azadari neither i believe i wish you cud see my heart. Whatever i posted aboce is for whom who are not understanding and spreadind bad image of our unity in DAR.Secondly i had put forward my belief and reasons brother please dont take wrong still am sorry if it hurted u neway for brother mehdi i had just wrote a reply in favour of Zanjeer, Qama , Tatbir as he mentioned fatawa and his understanding over it.
I have no personal issues with ne lover of ahlulbayt bet it neone but beliefs should be protected and justified if today Ayatullah sistani says dont even do chest beating being in his taqleed it will be haraam for me.
I had read the fatwa not reply of ayatullah Sistani that is like in my words if there is fear of loss of life or damage to limbs injuries which are irreversible then you cant do.

wasalaam
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Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani and other forms of Azaadari - Etiquettes

Postby abuali » 20 Jan 2008, 18:16

Dear Br. Hasan

I was not hurt at all. And I have no doubt on your intentions. We are brothers in Islam.

I just wanted to ensure that none of my posts, by error, may mislead the quick reader into thinking this forum is discussing Azaadari as a whole.

Perhaps the title of this topic and my first post which asks if there are any extremes may mislead the reader. I have therefore changed the title of this topic to reflect what is being discussed.

Shukran for bringing it to my attention.
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Re: Zanjeer, Qama Zani and other forms of Azaadari - Etiquettes

Postby qarrar » 20 Jan 2008, 19:32

Are we just reviving old discussions? I thought the issue of zanjeer was conclusively dealt with in this very section under thread name ‘zanjeer!’. viewtopic.php?f=45&t=342&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15
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