Working for women/Working after marriage ?

The decision to marry is one of great importance. How early should this decision be made? How early is too early? And everythign else about marriage

Should a woman/wife work for a living?

I am a man: No she should not; Only if neccessary
11
26%
I am a woman: No she should not; Only if neccessary
7
16%
I am a man: Yes she should/can even if not neccessary
5
12%
I am a woman: Yes she should/can even if not neccessary
9
21%
I am a man: The single woman can work, but the wife should not; Only if neccessary
4
9%
I am a woman: The single woman can work, but the wife should not; Only if neccessary
3
7%
I am a man: i dont really care; it should be her decision
4
9%
 
Total votes: 43
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 10 Dec 2009, 07:05

Salaams

Before I post my two cents in response to your arguments, I am posting something I have come across that might help shed some light.

Aya-e-tatheer is an ayat that can benefit this discussion:

[Shakir 33:33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

Notice the command at the beginning of the ayat.

However, this order is many times specifically translated for the wives of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) due to the previous verse:

[Shakir 33:32] O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word.

However, there can be two ways to look at it:

1. The order applies to all women.
2. Only applies to Prophets wives.

If the first argument seems plausible, since the order appears in a seperate ayat from that which addresses the wives. And since we know Innama yuridullah.. is definitely not for the wives, why should the first part be only for the wives?

And in case the second argument is true, it proves to us that since the Prophet's wives were not like any other women, by virtue of being the wives of the prophet, they were required to observe more than what the ordinary woman was required to. Notice that the extra requirement was not to go out and serve but to stay at home. This clearly tells us that in the eyes of Allah(swt), staying in their houses is better for women.
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 10 Dec 2009, 07:08

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:I went back to the hadith quoted and surprisingly enough, the word 'best' is not mentioned anywhere-not in the original arabic hadith, and not in the translation. The Prophet asked what is 'khayr' for a woman? and Lady Fatimah (as) replied what she did. Now there's a difference between the words 'khayr' and 'afdhal'. Khayr means good or it can be stretched to mean better. Afdhal (the word NOT used) means best. And if the word 'best' has not been used, almost all the arguments we were having just disappear, don't they? :)


Could you please provide reference for the original arabic hadeeth? I would like to go through the arabic in order to respond to your argument that the hadeeth does not refer to 'best'
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 10 Dec 2009, 07:30

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:But the point is there is no mention of it being better or best, just good. The word 'khayr' is a noun in arabic which simply means good. It has no comparative or superlative degrees so 'better' (comparative) and 'best' (superlative) are totally out of question. You are stretching it to mean what you THINK it means...that is your OPINION, not an Islamic fact.


In the meanwhile, could you please tell me your translation for the following phrases from the Holy Quran:

1. Khayrul amal

2. Khayrul bashar

3. Khayra ummatin

4. Khayr al warithin

5. Khayrul bariyyah

6. Hayya ala khayril amal from the adhaan.
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 10 Dec 2009, 07:40

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:There are more similar ahadith where the Ma'sumeen (pbut) mention "the KHAYR (good) out of your women..." and all of them talk about wajib things. Here's one example:
The H. Prophet (saw) has said, "The KHAYR of your women is she who is chaste and pious..." Wasailushia, vol 20, p30.



I cannot immediately access wasail shia. If you can please post the entire hadeeth.

From what you have posted however, it seems the Prophet (pbuh) has used Khayr to mean Best?

i.e:

The BEST of your women is she who is chaste and pious....

as opposed to

The GOOD of your women is she who is chaste and pious...

As to your argument that Khayr has been used for wajib, I will have to disagree. However I will refrain from posting my views until I can find/read the entire hadeeth.
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 10 Dec 2009, 11:50

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:On the other hand, when the Ma'sumeen (pbut) talk about the best, this is what is comes as:
1. Imam Sadiq (as) has said, "Surely there is always a form of worship better than another, and love for the Ahlul Bayt is the AFDHAL (best) form of worship." Biharul Anwar, vol 27, p91.

2.Imam Baqir (as) has said, "The AFDHAL (best) means by which servants can obtain nearness to Allah (swt), Mighty and Glorious, is obedience to Allah (swt), obedience to the Messenger (saw), and obedience to those charged with authority." Al-Kafi, vol 1, p187.

Now, it is clear that when the Ma'sumeen (as) mean best, they say it.


Once again, I do not have Biharul Anwar (in arabic or english) at my disposal so I will respond based entirely on your quote.

I am sure you will agree with me that Arabic is a complex language. Let alone the arabic used during the time of the holy prophet.

I will give you an example: Saba could mean 'seven', but also, at the time of the prophet it was used to refer to 'many'. Which is why it is interpreted by interpreters to mean 'many' in reference to ayats like 'saba samawat...'

My point being use of one arabic word to mean one thing does not by any means negate the use of another word for the same.
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 15 Feb 2010, 10:53

I think you need to take all the above-mentioned ahadith in Arabic and look at the grammatical differences which will make it clear what it means where.
If Allah assists you, there is none that can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, then who is there that can assist you after Him? And on Allah should the believers rely (Qur'an 3:160)
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 17 Feb 2010, 13:17

Alhamdulilah since we have established that translating 'Khayr' to mean 'best' is strongly supported by the Holy Quran and therefore is an Islamic translation, we can move on to the next step.

You have rightly pointed to a grammatical analysis. However a few other things need to be considered to comprehend the weight and depth of the words of our Holy Lady (as) :

1. Arabic grammar
2. Use of the words and phrases during the period of our Holy Lady (as).
3. Interpretation of the Hadith according to the teachings of the holy Ahlbayt(as)

Since I am not an expert in any of the above I had spoken to Dr. Alidina who I felt was the most knowledgeable resource immediately available who could interpreted the Hadith with dome level of authority considering the above.

Dr. Alidina answered all my questions (many of which you have raised in this discussion) without ever once trying to explain it away by translating khayr as anything other than best in the context of the Hadith in discussion. I therefore believe the inyerpetation is according to his understanding of the school of Ahlbayt (as)
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 20 Feb 2010, 18:00

And If you ignored the grammar or the word(s) used in this and other similar ahadith, you have interpreted the hadith as what you want it to be, not necessarily what the Bibi (as) meant it to be. So I'll say again, ask a expert of Arabic grammar to tell you the difference. Else we can agree to disagree instead of trying to forcefully convince each other.
If Allah assists you, there is none that can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, then who is there that can assist you after Him? And on Allah should the believers rely (Qur'an 3:160)
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 03 Jun 2010, 20:55

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:And If you ignored the grammar or the word(s) used in this and other similar ahadith, you have interpreted the hadith as what you want it to be, not necessarily what the Bibi (as) meant it to be. So I'll say again, ask a expert of Arabic grammar to tell you the difference. Else we can agree to disagree instead of trying to forcefully convince each other.


(bismillah)
(salam)

Felicitations and glad tidings on the joyous occassion of the birth of the Holy Lady of Light (AS).

I feel it appropriate to revive this discussion of one of the ahadith of the Holy Lady (AS) on her birthday.

Sister Fatimah, since your post above, I have been trying to critically examine my own interpretation to see if I ignored the grammar or words used.

Find below my analysis of our discussion:

  • Initially, you interpreted the hadith to simply be referring to the wajib hijab.
  • I opposed this view by challenging you to produce similar hadith where the Holy Lady talks of other wajib things which are simply 'good' for women (or which user the word khayr to refer to wajib for eg: wajib namaz is khayr for the woman).
  • You challenged this view by claiming that my interpretation of 'khayr' to mean 'best' or 'better' is not an Islamic translation and therefore flawed.
  • I replied by giving you statements from the Holy Quran in which 'Khayr' is universally translated as 'best'.
  • You are now challenging that grammar has not been considered.

Due to my lack of knowledge, I fail to see how the grammar has not been considered. Could you please elaborate on your point?
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 03 Jun 2010, 21:01

I have been searching for the arabic text of the hadith under discussion.

I requested brother Muntazir if he could help search for the arabic text and provide his view of the meaning of the hadith.

Find below what he so kindly looked up for me:

One day, the holy Prophet [s.’a.w], with his companions, was in the masjid when he asked:

ما هُوَ خَیرُ النِّسَاء؟
'What is best for women?’

The companions were not able to answer, or, the Prophet of Islam did not agree to their answers, if they did reply to his question.

Imam ‘Ali [‘a.s] went home to his wife Fatimah [s.’a] and asked her about the question regarding what is best for a woman, she said:

خَیرُ لَهُنَّ (النِّساء) اَن لا یَرَینَ الرِّجَال وَ لا یَرَونَهُنَّ (وَ لا یَرَاهُنَّ) الرِّجَال
‘Best for women is not to see men, and not to be seen by men’.

[Helilatul-Awliyaa: Vol. 2, p. 40, al-Gammah: Vol. 2, p. 23]

Learning from the Lady of Light, Imam [‘a.s] went to the Prophet [s.’a.w] and told him what Fatimah [s.’a] had to say about women… the Prophet of Islam became happy and said:

فَاطِمةُ بَضعَةُ مِنِّی
‘Fatimah is a part from me’.

[Bihaar ul-Anwaar: Vol. 24, p. 91]

From what we understand, the best state for a woman is this that she should always be covered [safe] and protected from the eyes of strangers, this surely is a benefit to herself from the within.

The Ahlal-Bayt [‘a.s] have never denied benefitting from the opposite gender, but as it has been said, it is the best state for a woman to be protected from people. The rest is for us to decide.

When a blind person had come to visit the Prophet [s.’a.w], Fatimah [s.’a] quickly got up and left the room. The Prophet [s.’a.w] asked her, ‘why did you leave the room, he was a blind man?’ she replied:

اَن لَم یَکُن یَرَانی فَاَنِّی اَرَاهُ وَ هُوَ یَشِمُّ الرِّیح
‘Although he doesn’t see me, but I can see him, and he can also smell’

[Bihaar ul-Anwaar: Vol. 43, p. 91]


Jazakallah brother for your time and effort.
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Moonbeam » 25 Dec 2010, 12:57

(salam)
Interesting information in the poll created! If u see men who dnt want their wives to work is almost neck to neck with the women who want to work after marriage (perhaps if more women members were active on ask this would be higher?!) it's clearly a tug of war on the thinkings of the young men and women of today! Well the poll is also closely followed by the women who dnt want to work after marriage!

There was once a time when a newly wedded girl would be asked 'how is the cooking or learning to cook/ house work going?' but nowadays the most common qstn newly wedded girls are being asked is 'so are you working?'!!!

Why has this become an accepted norm in our soceities today? Just because our girls are being educated more, it necessitates them to continue working after marriage so that their education is not gone to waste? Why can't women study for the sake of getting knowledge and ultimately being educated mothers (who make all the difference as opposed to an uneducated mother) as opposed to studying in order to have good careers, coz women can be as good as men?!
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 15 Jan 2011, 18:10

i think the shift in ideology has been catalyzed by media, mainly bollywood & hollywood. However, I personally feel the main agent of the change of ideology is the western developed education system that has been shoved down the throat of all former-colonies (or should we say 'colonies).

The effect can be observed on the men as well. Today many youngsters (male), as observed on the poll, will say that women should work even if they don't have to. A few decades ago, this would not have been the case.

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