Working for women/Working after marriage ?

The decision to marry is one of great importance. How early should this decision be made? How early is too early? And everythign else about marriage

Should a woman/wife work for a living?

I am a man: No she should not; Only if neccessary
11
26%
I am a woman: No she should not; Only if neccessary
7
16%
I am a man: Yes she should/can even if not neccessary
5
12%
I am a woman: Yes she should/can even if not neccessary
9
21%
I am a man: The single woman can work, but the wife should not; Only if neccessary
4
9%
I am a woman: The single woman can work, but the wife should not; Only if neccessary
3
7%
I am a man: i dont really care; it should be her decision
4
9%
 
Total votes: 43
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 05 Aug 2009, 22:01

Moonbeam wrote:Salaam
From the poll and everyone else views, I gather that by 'work' its meant actually going out of the house to work (office and so on)?

Women can work from home as well and have successful professional careers.

keenfarhan wrote:The woman should be working for a whole lot of reasons... to utilise the education that all of them get these days... to better utilise their time... to better appreciate the hard work that the husbands do...


I partially agree with the above but for a women who's working from home, however I do not agree that women would better appreciate the hard work the husbands do if they go out and work. If so, then men also should stay at home to appreciate the hard work that women do..

Just a thought: Why isn't housework work enough for women? Why isn't it a valid profession? After all cooking is an art and maintaining a beautiful home a skill..


I agree.

Not only do we often make the mistake of equating work to going out of the house (which is not recommended for women unless its necessary) to engage in some productive activity, we also tend to equate knowledge with formal education. Currently, sadly, formal education leads more to moral degradation than to acquisition of knowledge.

And it is under this banner of 'education' that women are encouraged to 'go out' and we hurriedly embrace this degrading phenomena (sadly even more enthusiastically than we embrace our prophets and imams' ways of life).

Like you said, cooking is a tough profession in itself and has amazing social results in a family life. Homemaking is arguably the most difficult job in the world and I salute all the house makers (aka housewifes) for the hard work they put in. Kudos!
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Umm.aly » 06 Aug 2009, 14:26

Gee Thank you! 8) :D
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 10 Aug 2009, 07:58

Well, some people are more easily bored than others and the fixed everyday routine of housework would drive them nuts. You'd see these people not just wanting to work outside home, but wanting to work in fields where there is variation and the work isn't the same thing day in day out. The idle mind is the devil's workshop, we've all heard at some point or another...and I'm sure a bored woman could stir up a lot of trouble.

Regarding the hadith brother Hasin mentioned about women not being 'seen' nor seeing strange men, I take it to mean seen in the wrong way, without proper hijab. I don't think there is anything wrong with a woman leaving her house for whatever reason as long as she is properly attired.
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Umm.aly » 11 Aug 2009, 20:01

I think people who get bored easily are not creative enough. Housework does not have to be routine. And staying at home doesn't only have to do with housework, there's lots that can be done and achieved from home and be so much more productive too!
Perhaps its a mindset we have that being busy is going out and working?
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 15 Aug 2009, 10:30

People are different and have different boredom thresholds. There are the thrill-seeking sort of people who are get bored easily, even though they are very creative. Its a personality thing; not really anything to do with the mindset, imo. I know that being at home can keep you busy; one doesn't have to work outside home to be busy, but my point was that with some professions these two kinds of 'busy' are totally different. For example in a field like medicine, medical research and development, medical diagnostics, biomedical engineering, etc, no two cases are the same. This keeps even a person with a low boredom threshold on their toes, requires creativity and is helpful for lots of people. Plus, of course, women find it easier and more comfortable to talk to a woman doctor. This is an example from one field. I'm sure there are others from other fields as well.

I think Farhan made a good point as well when he said
Anyways as far as my views go about this topic i would certainly prefer my wife to be working... I would say especially so in today's age where the lives of many ( not all ) women is ruled by gossip and the tv serials..


I'm not saying all women MUST work. But it is a choice best left to the individual according to her personality, ability and preferences. :)
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 29 Aug 2009, 06:21

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:
Regarding the hadith brother Hasin mentioned about women not being 'seen' nor seeing strange men, I take it to mean seen in the wrong way, without proper hijab. I don't think there is anything wrong with a woman leaving her house for whatever reason as long as she is properly attired.


I disagree.

If the hadith was simply referring to the issue of hijab (i might have an extreme view, but i think there can only be 'hijab' or 'no hijab'. everything in between is usually 'no hijab' based on the rule of 'you either follow all the rules or you are not - but thats another discussion by itself), then hijab would have most definitely been mentioned.

Plus it also implies by the most common Islamic knowledge that going in front of 'strange' men without proper hijab is obviously haraam.

If you look closely at the question Bibi Fatema (a.s) was asked and her answer, the context becomes clear. She is not answering a 'halaal or haram' question. She is answering a question of 'best over better and good'

According to that context I believe it is literary meant by her that the best among women is the one who does not see men and who is not seen by men.

The first part of the requirement (not see men) of being the best of women obviously deals with her own internal taqwa. The second part (not seen by men) deals with her ensuring strange men dont see her (even while in hijab).

I queried Shk. Alidina about this hadith with the same reservations that you have mentioned (with all the media campaigns all around us, our thinking is easily influenced and we try finding interpretations that suit our needs). However, he confirmed that the hadith is literal and not symbolic.

If a woman goes out of her home without necessity, according to this hadith she is jeopardizing her chances of qualifying for this position that our Lady of Light has described.
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 15 Sep 2009, 08:00

Lol, I'm sure it is possible to maintain hijab even if you leave the house. If that wasn't the case Bibi Fatimah (as) would have never left the house, even to fight for fadaq. The fact that she did not send someone else do it for her, that she went herself, proves that it is ok for women to leave their houses and be seen (in hijab) by strange men. Also, many believing women used to come to the mosque to pray/discuss issues with the Prophet (saww). I don't think the Prophet (saww) ever told them "You stay at home; you'll get what I say through your father/husband/son and anything you want to say to me send me a msg through them." Keep in mind that the mosque at the time of the Prophet (saww) wasn't segregated. The women used to pray behind the men, and probably sit there also, but the men and women could see each other.

Syed Ammar Nakshwani also mentioned the following hadith in one of his lectures a couple of Ramadhans back. He was talking about how Islamic Laws can be derived from ahadith. He said that Salman narrated that he once went to the house of Bibi Fatimah (as) to ask her a question and she was preparing some food by the fire. Her face was red and her hands were cut. (Something to that effect) So from this hadith we know it is permissible for a woman's hands and face to be exposed. This, again, was a case of a na-mahram man seeing and being seen by the Holy Lady Fatimah (as) in hijab.

And then there's the case of Bibi Khadija (as), another one of the four perfect women, she ran the biggest business in Arabia at her time. I'm sure she had some form of contact or the other, though limited, of course, with na-mahrams. Recall how she was drawn to the honesty and personality of the Prophet (saww)? She must have at least seen him at work.

Also, for the purpose of this discussion about women working/working after marriage, I think it is necessary to note the following:
1. If it is right for a woman to work before marriage, why should it be an issue after marriage? No law says that hijab or seeing/being seen is different at the two points. What is haraam after marriage is haraam before it also.

2. In today's times, with phones, computers, and internet everywhere it is very easy to run most business from home without seeing/being seen by any na-mahram. It is also possible to run businesses for ladies only. So I don't think the discussion should be about working per se, but as to what work may/may not be done.
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 16 Sep 2009, 01:20

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:Lol, I'm sure it is possible to maintain hijab even if you leave the house.


I didnt say its not possible. I didnt say its haraam. I said Bibi Fatema (as) describe the best of women are those who dont (except when necessary). Which means those that do are not necessarily sinning, but they are excluding themselves from fitting in Bibi's description of the best of women.

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:If that wasn't the case Bibi Fatimah (as) would have never left the house, even to fight for fadaq. The fact that she did not send someone else do it for her, that she went herself, proves that it is ok for women to leave their houses and be seen (in hijab) by strange men.


She left her house only when it became ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to complete her hujjat. It was only when no one apart from her could have done what she did, that she took the step to come out of her house. This was the absolute last step in doing Nahi Anil Munkar.

Notice how she never did something like this at any other time ever in her lifetime
. And she did it only when a major event took place that would be the cause of the breakdown of Islam in the hands of corrupt 'leaders' that she went out, solely, and exclusively to conduct an Islamic duty of performing amr bil maaruf and nahi anil munkar.

The effect her speech made would not have been made by anyone elses. Thats why it was absolutely necessary so that people would know that the Holy Prophet (as) (who said she is my blood and my flesh) would not approve of something Fatema (as) does not approve of.

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:Also, many believing women used to come to the mosque to pray/discuss issues with the Prophet (saww). I don't think the Prophet (saww) ever told them "You stay at home; you'll get what I say through your father/husband/son and anything you want to say to me send me a msg through them." Keep in mind that the mosque at the time of the Prophet (saww) wasn't segregated. The women used to pray behind the men, and probably sit there also, but the men and women could see each other.


Contrary to the above, the history that I have come across over the years is that the Holy Prophet (as) said that it was better for women to pray at home and it was better for men to pray in jamaat.

Also, although women used to come to pray to mosque, there was a separation (parda) between men and women. And after prayers the holy Prophet (as) used to order men to wait until all women had left so as to ensure they dont 'bump' into one another (since the mosque used to have one entrance for all).

Women at the time of the Holy Prophet (as) were used to communicate from behind a veil, if they ever needed to, with strange men.

If you have any references please post.

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:Syed Ammar Nakshwani also mentioned the following hadith in one of his lectures a couple of Ramadhans back. He was talking about how Islamic Laws can be derived from ahadith. He said that Salman narrated that he once went to the house of Bibi Fatimah (as) to ask her a question and she was preparing some food by the fire. Her face was red and her hands were cut. (Something to that effect) So from this hadith we know it is permissible for a woman's hands and face to be exposed. This, again, was a case of a na-mahram man seeing and being seen by the Holy Lady Fatimah (as) in hijab.


I am not aware about the authenticity of the ahadith (especially of the face and hands). If you could post it, it would help to analyse.

But lets assume its authentic. Notice how Salman Farsi (so far, apart from aimmah, I have only come across, salman, who has narrated ahadith directly from Bibi Fatema(as)) was the only companion to be called by the Prophet (as) as 'Salman is from my ahl'. Knowing that the Prophet (as) does not speak of his own accord (only what Allah(swt) instructs), we can take to mean this in the literary sense. In other words, he was a mahram.

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:And then there's the case of Bibi Khadija (as), another one of the four perfect women, she ran the biggest business in Arabia at her time. I'm sure she had some form of contact or the other, though limited, of course, with na-mahrams. Recall how she was drawn to the honesty and personality of the Prophet (saww)? She must have at least seen him at work.


From all accounts I have read of her, I have never come across any that could make me believe she was appearing in front of strange men.

From what I have read, she had maids and some males from her family working with her and slaves (those that are mahram as mentioned in Holy Quran).

Yes she had heard and seen the holy prophet (as) but that does not mean she had let men see her.


Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:Also, for the purpose of this discussion about women working/working after marriage, I think it is necessary to note the following:
1. If it is right for a woman to work before marriage, why should it be an issue after marriage? No law says that hijab or seeing/being seen is different at the two points. What is haraam after marriage is haraam before it also.

I never said its haraam.

Yes, I agree. The hadith says the best of women. It is not specific for married or single women.

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:2. In today's times, with phones, computers, and internet everywhere it is very easy to run most business from home without seeing/being seen by any na-mahram. It is also possible to run businesses for ladies only. So I don't think the discussion should be about working per se, but as to what work may/may not be done.


I totally agree.

The problem is, the 'dajjal-world' uses the lures of the world (read women's freedoms, equality, fashion, media, hollywood, bollywood etc etc) to encourage women to go out.
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 16 Sep 2009, 07:07

hasin wrote:Yes she had heard and seen the holy prophet (as) but that does not mean she had let men see her.

It is interesting to note that now we have come down to just being seen. So seeing is ok?

hasin wrote:Notice how Salman Farsi (so far, apart from aimmah, I have only come across, salman, who has narrated ahadith directly from Bibi Fatema(as)) was the only companion to be called by the Prophet (as) as 'Salman is from my ahl'. Knowing that the Prophet (as) does not speak of his own accord (only what Allah(swt) instructs), we can take to mean this in the literary sense. In other words, he was a mahram.
No. Only directly related blood-relatives are mahram. So says the Quran.

hasin wrote:I didnt say its not possible. I didnt say its haraam. I said Bibi Fatema (as) describe the best of women are those who dont (except when necessary).

Now I see 'except when necessary'. :) When exactly is it necessary? In the case of life and death? As in the case of a doctor who saves lives? Education? As in the case of a girl/woman who goes to a school that might be mixed, or has male teachers?

It is necessary (wajib) to acquire knowledge, for all muslims, men and women. And before there's a discussion as to the nature of this knowledge, here's another hadith. The Prophet (saww) said, "Acquire knowledge, be it from China." It is a known fact that there was no religious knowledge in China at the time of the Prophet (saww), so it was clearly worldly knowledge that he was referring to. Moving on, this means even girls have to be educated with worldly knowledge, which requires going to school. (No, home-schooling older kids does NOT work.) And even in single-sex schools there will be male teachers teaching the girls. You could work to build schools and universities and everything else with only female teachers and only female staff, but the first batch of them would definitely see and be seen by men. And then these women, already educated, qualified, would just sit at home, not work, not benefit anyone. And again, according to ahadith, knowledge is only knowledge when you put it to use. So studying without applying is just as good as not studying. Again in this attempt to create the 'best' world, maybe these women will work in the schools, but again they will refuse to meet the students' fathers when the mothers were unavailable for whatever reason. It all just doesn't add up very nicely.

To top it all off, it would mean no going out at all for any woman, not even to the mosque. Men see her on her way there, and she sees them. You could have an indoor car park for the ladies mosque, but no men could drop off their wives/sisters/daughters there, because other men's wives/sisters/daughters aren't supposed to see them or be seen by them. Women would not be able to stand by windows, coz hey, there's men on the street, and the women are not supposed to see any strange men. Sounds a lot like a sexist prison to me. Am I the only one who realizes how impractical things become if we take the hadith literally?

Hijab is supposed to be liberating, not imprisoning. Hijab allows a woman to do what she wants without having her physical characteristics being the object of scrutiny. I do not, for the life of me, see how being out of the house, but in hijab is anything less than ideal. Anyone who does, please explain it to me.
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 16 Sep 2009, 07:24

Take this case and think carefully about it.

One woman decides to sit at home, not see any strange men, or let any strange men see her. She is a good muslim; she fulfills all her obligations. Another woman, fulfills these same obligations, her children are well brought up, her family life is good, but in addition to all that the first woman does, this second woman also trained in medicine (Gynecology, Obstetrics, Paediatrics, Surgery, whatever suits your fancy). Now this first woman falls ill, or is pregnant and needs a c-section. The second woman steps in so that the first one is not seen hijab-less by any male.

Tell me...honestly...do we have any right to judge this lady doctor and say that the sit-at-home lady she treated was better than her?
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 16 Sep 2009, 17:25

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:
hasin wrote:Yes she had heard and seen the holy prophet (as) but that does not mean she had let men see her.

It is interesting to note that now we have come down to just being seen. So seeing is ok?

Please read Bibi Fatema (as) quote again. She mentions both seeing and being seen. I was concentrating on being seen because that is the part you were objecting to.

Since you have queried this, going deeper into history, Bibi Khadija (as) had heard more about the prophet than seen him (if seen him at all). The proposal was through her uncle. Since the Holy Prophet's qualities were well known (al amin etc) she agreed based on his qualities.

Besides one look, with intention of marriage is allowed.

to read more about bibi Khadija (as) life visit al-islam.org


Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:
hasin wrote:Notice how Salman Farsi (so far, apart from aimmah, I have only come across, salman, who has narrated ahadith directly from Bibi Fatema(as)) was the only companion to be called by the Prophet (as) as 'Salman is from my ahl'. Knowing that the Prophet (as) does not speak of his own accord (only what Allah(swt) instructs), we can take to mean this in the literary sense. In other words, he was a mahram.
No. Only directly related blood-relatives are mahram. So says the Quran.


So, nauzubillah, the Holy Prophet lied to us??? Think about that for a while.

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:
hasin wrote:I didnt say its not possible. I didnt say its haraam. I said Bibi Fatema (as) describe the best of women are those who dont (except when necessary).

Now I see 'except when necessary'. :) When exactly is it necessary? In the case of life and death? As in the case of a doctor who saves lives? Education? As in the case of a girl/woman who goes to a school that might be mixed, or has male teachers?

It is necessary (wajib) to acquire knowledge, for all muslims, men and women. And before there's a discussion as to the nature of this knowledge, here's another hadith. The Prophet (saww) said, "Acquire knowledge, be it from China." It is a known fact that there was no religious knowledge in China at the time of the Prophet (saww), so it was clearly worldly knowledge that he was referring to. Moving on, this means even girls have to be educated with worldly knowledge, which requires going to school. (No, home-schooling older kids does NOT work.) And even in single-sex schools there will be male teachers teaching the girls. You could work to build schools and universities and everything else with only female teachers and only female staff, but the first batch of them would definitely see and be seen by men. And then these women, already educated, qualified, would just sit at home, not work, not benefit anyone. And again, according to ahadith, knowledge is only knowledge when you put it to use. So studying without applying is just as good as not studying. Again in this attempt to create the 'best' world, maybe these women will work in the schools, but again they will refuse to meet the students' fathers when the mothers were unavailable for whatever reason. It all just doesn't add up very nicely.


If you think deeply for a moment you will realise that:
  • Acquiring knowledge (which is not necessarily equal to formal education) was wajib at the time of Bibi Fatema (as) as well.
  • Women needed medical attention (children were being born then as well) at the time of Bibi Fatema (as) as well.
  • Women acquired knowledge at the time of Bibi Fatema (as) as well.
  • Bibi Fatema (as) was a teacher. She taught a generation of women. She didnt have to go out and work or go out and benefit others among men to make her knowledge valuable.
So, knowing all the above, Bibi Fatema (as) still went on and put forward her definition. This tells us a couple of things:

1. Knowledge can be acquired without seeing men. Formal education on the other hand is a wordly system (if you trace it, it can be traced back to the knights templar and their 'plan' to brainwash humanity)

2. Women can have and provide services like medical attention without having to see men.

Because of the above, all your arguments above to put doubt on the literary meaning of hadith, are invalid.

Had all the above not been happening then, then maybe you may have had a point.

What the issue is, is that women have been made dependent on the system so that they have to go along with how things work. And 'how things work' just happen to be with men.

Perhaps your point may have been (which I misunderstood) that our current system is not perfect. And that we have to live with the current times.

I would agree that our system is not perfect. But i would strongly disagree that we have to go along with status quo. Change starts with one person a time.

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:To top it all off, it would mean no going out at all for any woman, not even to the mosque. Men see her on her way there, and she sees them. You could have an indoor car park for the ladies mosque, but no men could drop off their wives/sisters/daughters there, because other men's wives/sisters/daughters aren't supposed to see them or be seen by them. Women would not be able to stand by windows, coz hey, there's men on the street, and the women are not supposed to see any strange men. Sounds a lot like a sexist prison to me. Am I the only one who realizes how impractical things become if we take the hadith literally?


The hadith is not advocating policing of the matter (neither am I).

I believe the hadith is meant to touch the heart of a woman. It is meant to give her a way to attain a high status. (just like the hadith for men, which says the best among your youth is the one who can control his anger). These are meant to be paths to spiritual elevation of the self.

In other words, Bibi Fatema (as) knew very well that the world is far away from ideal (she lived in an arab society that was known for its backwardness and jahiliyat). She knew that not everyone would adopt this way of life. Yet she knew that some would, while living amongst the corruption.

On another note, the ladies gatherings in the imambargah in Dar, have become a charade (from what i hear). But thats another topic by itself.

Again, its not about policing (in reference to your 'sexist prison'). Its about self-purification of the highest level possible for a woman. (And i am forced to mention again, its not haraam)

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:Hijab is supposed to be liberating, not imprisoning. Hijab allows a woman to do what she wants without having her physical characteristics being the object of scrutiny. I do not, for the life of me, see how being out of the house, but in hijab is anything less than ideal. Anyone who does, please explain it to me.


Hijab is meant to be protecting the woman and the onlooking man from the whisperings of shaytan. Hijab can also allow a woman to be able to present among na-mahram if need be. Hijab is wajib.

Not seeing men and not being seen by men is a sunnate Fatema (as) that is described by her to be necessary to become the best of women.

To see why this is necessary to become best of women, study the lives of Bibi Fatema (as) and the women of the ahl bayt.

(The hadith of the woman who would lead bibi Fatema (as)'s carriage into heaven also comes to mind)
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 16 Sep 2009, 17:46

hasin wrote:So, nauzubillah, the Holy Prophet lied to us??? Think about that for a while.
No, never did the Prophet say that Salman was a mahram for Bibi Fatimah (as). You, brother, supposed it. It is a fact that the Arabs at the time of the Prophet (saww) were racist and looked down on the Persians and called them ajam. This was the reason for the Prophet (saww) saying no-one should call Salman Salman al-Farsi (due to the negative connotation of the term.) Instead, he suggested Salman be called Salman Muhammadi, for his high level of faith.

As for the main issue at hand, it has become clear that we will continue to disagree for as long as we discuss the matter, so I'll drop it. You can take seeing and being seen literally, I'll take it to mean being seen without hijab :)
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 16 Sep 2009, 20:40

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:
hasin wrote:So, nauzubillah, the Holy Prophet lied to us??? Think about that for a while.
No, never did the Prophet say that Salman was a mahram for Bibi Fatimah (as). You, brother, supposed it. It is a fact that the Arabs at the time of the Prophet (saww) were racist and looked down on the Persians and called them ajam. This was the reason for the Prophet (saww) saying no-one should call Salman Salman al-Farsi (due to the negative connotation of the term.) Instead, he suggested Salman be called Salman Muhammadi, for his high level of faith.


I did not suppose it dear sister. The Holy Prophet (as) said it.

While some sources gather him with the Muhajirun (immigrants from Mecca),[1] other sources narrate that during the Battle of the Trench, one of Muhajirun stated "Salman is one of us, Muhajireen", but was challenged by the Muslims of Medina known in Arabic as the Ansar. A lively argument began between the two groups, each of them claiming that Salman belonged to their group, and not to the other group. Muhammad arrived on the scene, and heard the argument. He was amused by the claims but he soon put an end to their argument by saying: "Salman is neither Muhajir nor Ansar. He is one of us. He is one of the People of the House, ahl al-Bayt.

This is the greatest honor ever bestowed upon anyone by Muhammed Mustafa (S.A.W), the Messenger of Allah. As recipient of revelations from Heaven, and as its interpreter, he declared that Salman was a member of his house - the Family of the Chosen one of Allah. No one else in the entire history of Islam has ever been elevated to such high rank as Salman the Persian.

source: http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/salman.asp


Now you can choose to believe that what the Holy Prophet (as) utters is figurative speech, but from my understanding of the Holy Quran and from the life of the Holy Prophet himself is that his words were never figurative and clouded in mystery. Everything was crystal clear (because it was guidance from Allah, it had to be clear and not figurative). If there ever was any doubt, the ahl-bayt would clarify it. Its only via people like Abu Hurayra that some issues have been forced to be interpreted as clouded in mystery.

As for the racism, there were many other parsis and not one of them except Salman, got that unique title. In fact, neither did any other arab, african etc.

As for your argument that the Holy Quran defines mahrams differently, then you might just as well also question the Holy Prophet for marrying more than 4 wives, since the Holy Quran allows only 4.


Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:As for the main issue at hand, it has become clear that we will continue to disagree for as long as we discuss the matter, so I'll drop it. You can take seeing and being seen literally, I'll take it to mean being seen without hijab :)


To check my own understanding of this hadith (because I am human and in no way knowledgeable enough to be worthy of comprehending the weight of the words of Bibi Fatema (as), as they deserve to be comprehended), I spoke to an aalim who has studied ahadith over the years and is definitely more knowledgeable than me and very respected.

The following is a gist of what he told me.

He said, this hadith is in line with what logic tells us.

Although hijab is an excellent measure to shun the evil with which shaytan and nafs make a man look at a woman, some men are worse than animals. They have degraded themselves so much that even when they see a woman in hijab they can look at her with the same evil intentions. And men of this lowly degree are found everywhere.

Hence, a woman to protect herself from becoming an unwilling tool in the hands of shaytan, would traverse to her utmost perfection if she denies shaytan this chance to spread his evil.
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Muhammad Mahdi
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 16 Sep 2009, 21:58

Not much to say about the rest of the discussion but I strongly disagree with your deduction that because Salman was "ahlul bayt", bibi Fatimah was not supposed to wear hijab before him.

Ahlul bayt means people of the prophet's house. So in a way, Jafar at Tayyar was also ahlul bayt. Does that mean that hijab was not required there as well? No. Just as we have near relations and distant ones, though Salman was an ahlul bayt, he could never be a mahram.
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Re: Working for women/Working after marriage ?

Postby abuali » 16 Sep 2009, 23:11

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:Not much to say about the rest of the discussion but I strongly disagree with your deduction that because Salman was "ahlul bayt", bibi Fatimah was not supposed to wear hijab before him.

Ahlul bayt means people of the prophet's house. So in a way, Jafar at Tayyar was also ahlul bayt. Does that mean that hijab was not required there as well? No. Just as we have near relations and distant ones, though Salman was an ahlul bayt, he could never be a mahram.


I did not say that Bibi Fatema (as) was not supposed to wear hijab infront of Salman. The women of the ahl bayt are at another level altogether. There are several riwaya that point towards the fact that let alone infront of namahram, they used to adorn some form of hijab within their houses as well (i.e. in presence of their mahram).

My quote about 'Salman being part of the ahl' was in response to a hadith that sister Fatima Zahra quoted. I first questioned the authenticity of the part where 'Salman allegedly mentions the face and hands of Bibi (as)' and then I went on to try and explain how this is possible, if its authentic.

Unlike some of our brethren, our definition of 'ahl bayt' (as defined by our holy imams(as)) does not include the other members of the house (i.e. wives, jaffar tayyar etc). It is unique and restricted to those who were under the kisa, unless otherwise stated by a masoom.

In this case, a masoom explicitly states that Salman is from his ahl (which includes those five personalities and according to hadeeth-e-kisa, jibraeel(as))

Knowing that the ahl are mahram for each other, I am deducing that Salman, who is included in the ahl, has been given this position, because he is worthy of it and Allah (through instructions to the holy Prophet(as)) made him part of the ahl.

The other reason which leads me to believe this is the fact that i only know of Salman (apart from other aimmah(as)) who has had the privilege to narrate wisdom directly from Bibi (as). This tells me he has a special status.

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