Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

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Would you drink Azam Malt?

Yes
2
22%
No
7
78%
 
Total votes: 9
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby Moonbeam » 24 Oct 2011, 23:31

Under the section of najis things, according to Taudhihul Masael of Ayatullah Sistani (May Allah give him a long and healthy life) the following is found:

Alcoholic Liquor

112. * All Alcoholic liquors and beverages which intoxicate a person, are najis and on the basis of recommended precaution, everything which is originally liquid and intoxicates a person, is najis. Hence narcotics, like, opium and hemp, which are not li quid originally, are Pak, even when a liquid is added to them.

113. All kinds of industrial alcohol used for painting doors, windows, tables, chairs etc. are Pak.

114. If grapes or grape juice ferments by itself, or on being cooked, they are Pak, but it is haraam to eat or drink them.

115. If dates, currants and raisins, and their juice ferment, they are Pak and it is halal to eat them.
Beer (Fuqa')
116. * Beer, which is prepared from barley, and is called 'Ab-i-Jaw', is haraam, but there is Ishkal in it being najis. But barley water which is medically prepared, and is called 'Maush- Shaeer', is Pak.


Surely if fermentation/respiration of yeast (whatever it is that happens!) were to be alcoholic in nature, it would be mentioned in the above like the way grapes, dates and currents are mentioned?

It would be interesting if we can get some feedback from Ask Alims?

Source: http://www.al-islam.org/laws/najisthings.html#112
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 25 Oct 2011, 09:12

114. If grapes or grape juice ferments by itself, or on being cooked, they are Pak, but it is haraam to eat or drink them.


Grapes ferment naturally due to presence of yeast in the atmosphere and the sugars in the grape.

This would suggest that we are on the correct track in the discussion when it comes to fermentation leading to alcohol.


Beer, which is prepared from barley, and is called 'Ab-i-Jaw', is haraam,

Beer preparation involves use of yeast for the fermentation.

Moonbeam wrote:
Surely if fermentation/respiration of yeast (whatever it is that happens!) were to be alcoholic in nature, it would be mentioned in the above like the way grapes, dates and currents are mentioned?



Since all the above produce alcohol due to the presence of yeast, either the mujtahid does not know the science behind the process (and I do not mean to offend him or his followers in the slightest) or there were some mistakes in the translation which left out the yeast part.

However, there is no doubt that yeast respiration in the absence of oxygen produces alcohol. [up]
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 25 Oct 2011, 09:46

qamar wrote:
Muhammad Mahdi wrote:While we ponder over that...
Alcoholic drinks in arabic are called khamr.
Yeast is خميرة, khamira in Arabic (Hamira in kiswahili).


daaru in gujrati is alcohlic drink
daaram is fruit


Here's a simpler explanation using English to demonstrate what Mahdi was referring to. As an example, let's take the Greek root "Photo" which means "light". Now wherever you come across "photo-" in an English word, you know it refers to light. This includes:
1.Photocopy: a process which uses light to make copies of documents
2. Photoelectric cell: A cell that used light energy to generate an electric current.
3. Photosynthesis: a process where light is used to synthesize compounds
4. Photophobia: an intense dislike for light caused either by disorders of the eye or by a migraine
5. Photograph: a picture made by using light ("graph" is another root which means "to write", such as calligraphy, graphology, etc)
and the list goes on...

I hope the concept of root words is now a little clearer.
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby sadika » 25 Oct 2011, 18:14

muhammad: wat is your qualification? how many yrs have u studied science n islamic laws? perhaps once u list these we can decide if we shud take ur word against that of syd sistani. seriously, on wat basis r u challenging his fatwa?

r u sayin yeast is alcohol? and somehw sistani missed tat glarin fact?

faimah, even thgh i undstnd the 'concept' of root words, i dnt see how muhammads example and qamars example r ne diffrnt unless we can determine either to be wrng
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby qamar » 25 Oct 2011, 18:45

sistr fatimah: I appreciate your taking the trouble to explain the idea. But my post was meant to ask brthr mahdi for some more weight to his assertion than mere assumption that two similar sounding words have a common root. I hoped my post will highlight that fact, instead it prompted you to spend your time in explaining the concept of root word. sorry for that.

sistr sadiqa: I dont think brthr mahdi is challenging the Grand Ulema (are you brthr?), he just seems confused how a thing that can be used to make alcohol can have any other state where it is halaal.

brthr mahdi, since you seem to be aware of how and when yeast becomes alcohol for our benefit can you tell us the scientific conditions that are required for yeast to become alcohol, say to an extent of 0.05% as you mentioned is found in daily bread.
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 25 Oct 2011, 21:15

Unfortunately, qamar, my lesson seems to have been wasted on you. Open an Arabic dictionary that lists words by common roots and you'll find khamr and khamira under the same root, khamara.

Yeast on its own is not haram. And it is NOT alcohol (as supposed by sis sadiqa). It is, in fact, used as dietary supplement to provide the B-vitamins and it contains about half its weight in amino acids. A handful of yeast is totally permissible. However, if you mix yeast with water and a carbohydrate, the yeast starts respiring, using the carbs as its energy source. The end products of this process are carbon dioxide (which makes the dough rise, exactly what we want) and the notorious by-product, ethanol (the common drinking alcohol, which we don't want). That is established fact. So whether or not bread contains a small % of alcohol is not the question here. The question, rather, is whether or not such small quantities of alcohol are permissible.

Coming back to the question at hand, as pointed out above, azam uses artificial flavourants and so, not having undergone the fermentation process, would not contain any more alcohol than the juice you make at home.
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 25 Oct 2011, 23:57

sadika wrote:muhammad: wat is your qualification? how many yrs have u studied science n islamic laws? perhaps once u list these we can decide if we shud take ur word against that of syd sistani. seriously, on wat basis r u challenging his fatwa?


I have not challenged his fatwa. I merely mentioned the different ways his rulings about alcoholic drinks all inherently use yeast for production of alcohol.

There is no need for asking for my qualifications. I am a layman when it comes to religious matters but I believe I am more informed in the scientific aspect of this than the esteemed mujtahid.

r u sayin yeast is alcohol? and somehw sistani missed tat glarin fact?

I mentioned this before but I will explain again.

Yeast is a fungi. Like all living things it respires to produce energy. If yeast respires in the absence of oxygen, then alcohol and carbon dioxide is produced. The net-like bubbly appearance of bread is due to this CO2.

Yeast occurs naturally as well, hence home-made juices can have small percentages of alcohol as well due to natural fermentation taking place. Yeast is also present on the human body, an overgrowth of which may lead to yeast infections.

As you can see, yeast is not alcohol but it is used to produce alcohol. We know all this because we understand the chemistry behind it. Many more are oblivious to all this ( as were you I presume) and hence it is not such a glaring fact.


he just seems confused how a thing that can be used to make alcohol can have any other state where it is halaal.


I am not confused about yeast. There are some kinds of yeast which have been deactivated (biologically inactive) which are unable to respire and produce alcohol. These are of nutritional value and quite delicious with a nice 'chees'y flavor.

brthr mahdi, since you seem to be aware of how and when yeast becomes alcohol for our benefit can you tell us the scientific conditions that are required for yeast to become alcohol, say to an extent of 0.05% as you mentioned is found in daily bread.

Yeast respires to produce alcohol in the presence of a carbohydrate. The carbohydrate is broken down to get glucose which is then converted to obtain carbon dioxide and ethanol(alcohol)

In bread most of the ethanol is evaporated due to baking but upto 0.5% can remain in the bread.
For your own sake, you can test this out by putting some yeast into dough. After a few hours, you will be able to smell the alcohol in the dough.
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby Insaan » 26 Oct 2011, 12:03

Though I am not sure but according to my perspective, I would think that the process of change [inquilab] or transformation [Istihala] is taking place here which makes the end product pak. Please check out these processes which make najis things pak under the section of ‘’Mutahhirat’’ in the Islamic laws. We can ask the aalims of our community to shed light on this. I strongly believe that our respected ulemas never give fatwa for anything’s permissibility without fully researching into it.
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 26 Oct 2011, 14:04

Nah, none of those occur in this case with the alcohol.
The end product is alcohol so even if such changes occur, the end product is unaffected.
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby qamar » 26 Oct 2011, 20:18

Fatimah Zahra Karim wrote:Unfortunately, qamar, my lesson seems to have been wasted on you. Open an Arabic dictionary that lists words by common roots and you'll find khamr and khamira under the same root, khamara.

Yeast on its own is not haram. And it is NOT alcohol (as supposed by sis sadiqa). It is, in fact, used as dietary supplement to provide the B-vitamins and it contains about half its weight in amino acids. A handful of yeast is totally permissible. However, if you mix yeast with water and a carbohydrate, the yeast starts respiring, using the carbs as its energy source. The end products of this process are carbon dioxide (which makes the dough rise, exactly what we want) and the notorious by-product, ethanol (the common drinking alcohol, which we don't want). That is established fact. So whether or not bread contains a small % of alcohol is not the question here. The question, rather, is whether or not such small quantities of alcohol are permissible.

Coming back to the question at hand, as pointed out above, azam uses artificial flavourants and so, not having undergone the fermentation process, would not contain any more alcohol than the juice you make at home.

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:
sadika wrote:muhammad: wat is your qualification? how many yrs have u studied science n islamic laws? perhaps once u list these we can decide if we shud take ur word against that of syd sistani. seriously, on wat basis r u challenging his fatwa?


I have not challenged his fatwa. I merely mentioned the different ways his rulings about alcoholic drinks all inherently use yeast for production of alcohol.

There is no need for asking for my qualifications. I am a layman when it comes to religious matters but I believe I am more informed in the scientific aspect of this than the esteemed mujtahid.

r u sayin yeast is alcohol? and somehw sistani missed tat glarin fact?

I mentioned this before but I will explain again.

Yeast is a fungi. Like all living things it respires to produce energy. If yeast respires in the absence of oxygen, then alcohol and carbon dioxide is produced. The net-like bubbly appearance of bread is due to this CO2.

Yeast occurs naturally as well, hence home-made juices can have small percentages of alcohol as well due to natural fermentation taking place. Yeast is also present on the human body, an overgrowth of which may lead to yeast infections.

As you can see, yeast is not alcohol but it is used to produce alcohol. We know all this because we understand the chemistry behind it. Many more are oblivious to all this ( as were you I presume) and hence it is not such a glaring fact.


he just seems confused how a thing that can be used to make alcohol can have any other state where it is halaal.


I am not confused about yeast. There are some kinds of yeast which have been deactivated (biologically inactive) which are unable to respire and produce alcohol. These are of nutritional value and quite delicious with a nice 'chees'y flavor.

brthr mahdi, since you seem to be aware of how and when yeast becomes alcohol for our benefit can you tell us the scientific conditions that are required for yeast to become alcohol, say to an extent of 0.05% as you mentioned is found in daily bread.

Yeast respires to produce alcohol in the presence of a carbohydrate. The carbohydrate is broken down to get glucose which is then converted to obtain carbon dioxide and ethanol(alcohol)

In bread most of the ethanol is evaporated due to baking but upto 0.5% can remain in the bread.
For your own sake, you can test this out by putting some yeast into dough. After a few hours, you will be able to smell the alcohol in the dough.


my brother and sister in faith (fatimah and muhammad)

thank you for your lesson in root words. I remember it very well from my arabic 101. however, you have fallen short by stopping at looking for proof of muhammads claim about the root word of khamira. have you made any effort to disprove the common root of daram and daru?

my comment on the root word was to make light of the fact that a common root word does not mean the same laws should apply. an example is 'masjidul haraam'. does that mean the masjid is haraam?

you both claim in depth knowledge of the chemical process of respiration (aerobic and anaerobic) of yeast during the baking process. muhammad claims to know more about the process than the grand ulema. you both also claim that it is a fact that alcohol (or more precisely ethanol C2H6O) is present in bread. and you claim this to be such a fact as not to be arguable. in other words, you are now debatting whether the ulemas know this or if they have allowed it unwittingly, since alcohol in any quantity however small is haraam to consume.

to test your knowledge about the process and about what happens to the ethanol in the bread-dough please answer the following questions for me.

1. during fermentation (respiration) of yeast (more specifically bakers yeast or Saccharomyces cerevisiae) at what stage is ethanol produced? Is this before the production of carbon dioxide or much much after?

2. during the bread-baking process, is the process of fermentation allowed to continue to such a time that ethanol is produced? or is it stopped much earlier?

3. what is the boiling point of ethanol?

4. assuming that the dough that was made using fermented yeast contains traces of ethanol and then the dough is molded and put in the oven to bake, what is the temperature that is used to bake bread?
( i assume you know where i am going with this by now?)

5. considering #3 if there was any ethanol in the dough would it survive the baking process with the temperatures used in #4?

i think its highly naive to believe that the Grand Ulema have not considered what you have considered.
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby qamar » 26 Oct 2011, 20:28

as an afterthought, here is another question to add value to the above post

6. is ethanol produced in both aerobic and anaerobic respiration of yeast or only anaerobic?

7. is the yeast in bread-baking left in the open or tightly closed (without any oxygen)?

you get the jist
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 26 Oct 2011, 23:43

however, you have fallen short by stopping at looking for proof of muhammads claim about the root word of khamira. have you made any effort to disprove the common root of daram and daru?


It would be your duty to show the relationship between the two words not the other way around. Establishing the accuracy of an alleged fact lies with the party claiming the 'fact'. This is evident in court as well where the prosecution has to establish the defendant is guilty. :D

my comment on the root word was to make light of the fact that a common root word does not mean the same laws should apply. an example is 'masjidul haraam'. does that mean the masjid is haraam?


Actually, masjid al haram is called so because certain things are prohibited(haraam) within its bounds and because it is sanctified. It shares the root word with ihram(the dressing worn that begins the prohibition). But that is another discussion altogether. With this I conclude the root words mix up.

you both claim in depth knowledge of the chemical process of respiration (aerobic and anaerobic) of yeast during the baking process. muhammad claims to know more about the process than the grand ulema.

I have knowledge of the process which is as a result of paying attention in class and a bit of research. I believe I may have better understanding of this process than the ulema and this is in no way a means of demeaning the great personalities. I also know more about computers, cameras and the weather of Tanzania if you want to make a list. :biggrin:
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 27 Oct 2011, 00:03

at what stage is ethanol produced? Is this before the production of carbon dioxide or much much after?

a. Both Carbon dioxide and ethanol are produced simultaneously as a result of the respiration.

during the bread-baking process, is the process of fermentation allowed to continue to such a time that ethanol is produced? or is it stopped much earlier?


b. The purpose of adding yeast is to raise the bread thru evolution of Carbon dioxide which happens simultaneously with ethanol. See a. above

considering #3 if there was any ethanol in the dough would it survive the baking process with the temperatures used in #4?


c. The uncooked dough may contain larger then even 5% of alcohol by volume. The bp of ethanol being around 78 c, most is evaporated at baking temperatures. Note the keyword 'most'. Hence due to evaporation, the alcohol content of the baked bread comes to around 0-0.5%. The alcohol is not completely eliminated!

Ethanol is a product of respiration in the absence of oxygen. Thus initially, the yeast respires aerobically as there is oxygen present. The oxygen however runs out which then leads to anaerobic respiration and alcohol. Even if the dough is left open, not all the yeast has equal access to the oxygen as some will always be covered at the bottom or be enclosed within the dough.
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby qamar » 27 Oct 2011, 21:36

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:
however, you have fallen short by stopping at looking for proof of muhammads claim about the root word of khamira. have you made any effort to disprove the common root of daram and daru?


It would be your duty to show the relationship between the two words not the other way around. Establishing the accuracy of an alleged fact lies with the party claiming the 'fact'. This is evident in court as well where the prosecution has to establish the defendant is guilty. :D


find a gujrati dictionary and you will see both daaru and daraam have the same root word :)

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:
my comment on the root word was to make light of the fact that a common root word does not mean the same laws should apply. an example is 'masjidul haraam'. does that mean the masjid is haraam?


Actually, masjid al haram is called so because certain things are prohibited(haraam) within its bounds and because it is sanctified. It shares the root word with ihram(the dressing worn that begins the prohibition). But that is another discussion altogether. With this I conclude the root words mix up.


my point exactly. glad you have understood that two words even thought seemingly similar do not mean the same thing. assuming they mean the exact same thing can lead to gross error.

the similar words simply mean that yeast can be used to make alcohol and not that yeast is alcohol or always makes alcohol.

in fact only one species of yeasts among the over 1500 known species is known to produce ethanol. Assuming that because of the similar name yeast=alcohol is like assuming that the 'haram' in masjidul-haram' means the masjid is haram. both need to be considered in context to extract the true meaning.


Muhammad Mahdi wrote:
you both claim in depth knowledge of the chemical process of respiration (aerobic and anaerobic) of yeast during the baking process. muhammad claims to know more about the process than the grand ulema.

I have knowledge of the process which is as a result of paying attention in class and a bit of research. I believe I may have better understanding of this process than the ulema and this is in no way a means of demeaning the great personalities. I also know more about computers, cameras and the weather of Tanzania if you want to make a list. :biggrin:


i will repeat it is very naive to think we know more than the respected ulema in any topic on which they have issued fatwas. i would recommend you study the biographies of the ulema and the amount of time they spend acquiring knowledge before they even considering issuing fatwas. and then compare the same to how fast we make our opinions public when all we know is a little book knowledge that is spoon fed to us.

i feel you are demeaning the entire process of ijtihad (not only the ulema) by suggesting that the ulema issued a fatwa without being sure of whether the item is halaal or not.
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Re: Azam Malt: 0% Alcohol?

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 28 Oct 2011, 08:50

I feel we have now started debating on belief rather than facts. All that aside, my points regarding the chemistry (actual hard evidence) are before you if you wish to pursue discussion.
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