'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Lessons and thoughts on fiqh/jurisprudence

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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby Muntazir » 16 Dec 2010, 15:53

In the name of the Just.

'aleykum as-Salaam ya akhi.

The Fataawas are from Ayatullah as-Sistani's Persian website, Sayyid Muhammad Sa'eed al-Hakim's website and also search for this book online: Deen? ‘Urf? Am Matha? By Ahmad Qays.

I'm waiting for a book from Qom that gives more fataawas from almost all the maraaja'.

Please keep us in your prayers.
as-Salaamu 'aleykum warahmatullah
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby Muntazir » 17 Dec 2010, 15:34

In the name of al-Kareem.

'Azzamallahu 'ujoorana wa 'ujoorakum.

“Zanjeer” [زنجیر] is a Persian word which translates to “Chain” in English language. [Try yourself in Google or see Dictionary].

“Zani” [زنی] comes from the root-word “Zadan” [زدن] which translates to “To Beat”.

When you combine them both together, you get “Zanjeer Zani” [زنجیر زنی] which means “Chain Beating”.

When it is clear to us what “Zanjeer Zani” is, then why do we add blades and beat ourselves with it? If blades were to be added with the chains then it was not so difficult to add “Tiyghe” [تیغه], which means “Blade” along with “Zanjeer Zani”, becoming “Zanjeer ba Tiyghe Zani” [زنجیر با تیغه زنی]. What ritual is this then? Is it accepted by the Ahl al-Bayt [‘a.s] school?

We seek the help of our Imam [‘a.t.f.s].
as-Salaamu 'aleykum warahmatullah
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby Muntazir » 17 Dec 2010, 15:46

In the name of al-Malik.

Salaamun 'aleykum.

View the following videos:

Ayatullah Wahid Khurasani - Iranian Scholar [One of the top 5 Maraaja' of our time]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsdpLOCHBfA&feature=related

Jan Ali Kazmi - Pakistani Scholar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_caJhW6s2BA&NR=1
as-Salaamu 'aleykum warahmatullah
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby Muntazir » 17 Dec 2010, 16:20

In the name of al-Hakim.

Salaamun 'aleykum

Sayyid Jawad Naqwi – A famous Pakistani Scholar who is well-known for his Philosophical work.

He quotes the following ‘Ulamaa:

1. Ayatullah Sayyid ‘Ali Khamenei,
2. Ayatullah Makarem Shirazi,
3. Ayatullah Noori Hamadani,
4. Ayatullah Mohammad Taqi Behjat,
5. Ayatullah Sayyid ‘Ali Sistani …

Watch these videos in Urdu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUNsv_v61eE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SizJabdf4dI&feature=related
as-Salaamu 'aleykum warahmatullah
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby Muntazir » 17 Dec 2010, 16:38

In the name of 'Allah.

Salaamun 'aleykum

The following Fataawas are by the two great 'Ulamaa: Ayatullah Sayyid 'Ali Khamenei and Sistani.

Ayatullah Sayyid 'Ali Sistani:

Question by Ahmed: My brother wants to do Qama on 20 Safar, he is following Ayatollah Sistani. Based on the misuse of Qama today, insincerity of many people, diseases spreading around, and political views can I stop him from doing Qama?

Answer by Board of Istifa, Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani: The main objective of mourning and lamentation during 'Ashura', is to respect the signs and symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain (as), his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. Also its ritual aspect should be preserved. So those actions which are not understandable for the enemies of Islam and non-Shia Muslims and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.

Question by Zaeem Sherazi: I want to know the status of beating our backs with knives (ZANJEER) on the day of Ashura? What is it status in our Fiqh?

Answer by Board of Istifa, Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani: The philosophy of mourning during 'Ashura', is to respect the symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain (as), his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. So those actions which are not understandable and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.

Ayatullah Sayyid 'Ali Khamenei: Practical Laws of Islam [Religious Events]

Q1430: What is the view on beating the drum and cymbal, blowing the trumpet, and lashing oneself with chains with blades during the processions of the commemoration of the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.)?

A: If the use of such chains leads, in the eye of the public, to defaming our school of thought or inflicting a noticeable harmful effect on the body, it is not permissible. There is no harm in using the drum, cymbal, and trumpet in the traditional way.

Q1439: Is there any basis in religion for piercing one's body with weights dangling therefrom, all in the name of commemorating the martyrdom of the Imam Husayn (a.s.)?

A: These acts, which are, inevitably, bound to portray our school of thought in a negative shade, are impermissible.

Q1449: In commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.) on the tenth of Muharram, some people hit themselves with a machete, or walk bare-footed on fire. Such actions defame Shi'ism and put it in a bad light, if not undermine it. They cause bodily and spiritual harms on these doing it as well. What is your opinion in this matter?

A: Any practice that causes bodily harm, or leads to defaming the faith, is Haram. Accordingly, the believers have to steer clear of it. There is no doubt that many of these practices besmirch the image of Ahlul Bayt's (a.s.) School of Thought which is the worst damage and loss.

Q1450: Is hitting oneself with swords Halal if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwa in this regard universal?

A: In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.


Many people today are openly practicing Haraam within the Masjid!
as-Salaamu 'aleykum warahmatullah
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby abuali » 18 Dec 2010, 11:58

Muntazir wrote:In the name of the Just.

'aleykum as-Salaam ya akhi.

The Fataawas are from Ayatullah as-Sistani's Persian website, Sayyid Muhammad Sa'eed al-Hakim's website and also search for this book online: Deen? ‘Urf? Am Matha? By Ahmad Qays.

I'm waiting for a book from Qom that gives more fataawas from almost all the maraaja'.

Please keep us in your prayers.


ujoorana wa ujoorakum

could you post the links to their answers so it's easier to navigate 

Are the translation in english done by you?

Is it possible to post scanned pages of the book you are referring  to?
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby abuali » 18 Dec 2010, 12:31

For the vendor of discussion and better understanding I present the following for the readers:
The rulings of various Mujtahid on Zanjeer Matam and other aspect of the Azadari
The above had been compiled by Sayyid Murtaza Rizvi, Dar es Salaam

after reading the above fatwas, and comparing the same with fatwas posted in this topic, what similarities or differences can be made?

With references to Ayatullah Sistani (may Allah protect him) and his responses as posted above I have noticed that even though the questioner has asked a straight forward question on whether zanjeer is allowed, His Emminence has, instead of replying yes or no has mentioned a condition that if presen will make the act disallowed.

So it seems the ruling is conditional. Am I
missing something in my observation?
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby Muntazir » 18 Dec 2010, 13:16

In the name of He.

Salaamun 'aleykum.

I discussed this issue with a few scholars and they said Ayatullah Sistani has not declared a fatwa on matter such as this one until now. The answers you read from the website are coming from the 'Office', not from Sayyid himself.

Our resident 'Aalim, Sheikh Murtadha 'Alidina, approached Sayyid al-Sistani in person and raised this question but Sayyid Aga did not respond to him on this issue, why, we don't know and therefore we can't say anything from him except from the other 'Ulamaa who have already declared a fatwa.

We can't say anything due to Ayatullah Sistani's reasons to why he is still quiet. He knows best and therefore it is compulsory on us to follow him and his teachings and to say nothing what he has not declared as yet.

I will continue to research on this matter and writing to his office for further replies. I will also continue to collect whatever I find regarding the true meaning of 'Azadari and update you insha'Allah.

Hope this has not caused any inconvenience to the readers.
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby Muntazir » 18 Dec 2010, 14:46

as-Salaamu 'aleykum warahmatullah
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby Muntazir » 18 Dec 2010, 14:49

In the name of 'Allah.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

as-salaamu 'aleykum warahmatullah.

I have a question and I want as many people to reply:

My Question:

"What kind of Zanjeer takes place in India and Pakistan?"

Thank you.
as-Salaamu 'aleykum warahmatullah
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby Muntazir » 19 Dec 2010, 07:03

In the name of 'Allah.

Salaamun 'aleykum.

Kindly read the following:

سؤال: سينه زنى با زنجير كه در هند و پاكستان معمول است از نظر شرعى چه حكم دارد؟

پاسخ: بهتر است به نحو معمول و متعارف عزادارى كنند.

Translation:

Question: What is the religious [Islamic] ruling on beating the chest with chains, common in India and Pakistan? [It is very clear to what kind of Zanjeer is being discussed and I don’t need to explain]

Answer: It is better to do it the usual and normal way of ‘Azadari.

Source: http://sistani.org/local.php?modules=nav&nid=5&cid=927 – Fatwa No. 3
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby abuali » 19 Dec 2010, 15:42

i agree that as followers of Ayatullah Sistani we need to accept his stance on the issue.

As to the issue of being bare chested in easy view of na-mahrams (which also applies to swimming in public pools by the way), we can easily encourage the use of tshirts which can be handed over to azadaar who wish to partake in zanjeer.
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Re: 'Ulamaa and Blood-shedding

Postby abuali » 19 Dec 2010, 20:48

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=2603&p=13827#p13827

The above link has info on how to post youtube videos that can open in Ask directly

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